[CESG] Fw: REMINDER: Draft Notes of CESG meeting on 15th May 2017

Tue May 23 18:30:03 UTC 2017

Hi Mario,

In the case of the MP&S discussion I suspect that this may be a case of "you hear what you want to hear."  Since the initial discussion was mostly you and me I specifically asked the other Ads for feedback on this issue of whether CCSDS normally separated or combined data format standards and service standards.  My notes, written during the meeting, say this:

- MPS format & service, Mario says “Dan Smith likes the MPS format & service", as does Steve Chien
- Scott, Erik, and Jonathan all agree that combining formats and services in one document is a problem
- Scott raises example of CFDP service & protocol, which is a different thing
=> agree to have a separate telecon about this MPS issue between MPS and CESG

Granted that these are my notes, but it is what I heard during the meeting.  I've taken the time to talk to Dan Smith and Steve Chien about this issue.  Dan was unequivocal that he does not support combining these into one document and that he believes we should have clearly defined, interoperable, data formats.  Steve Chien stated that he felt that data formats needed an understanding of the services that we going to use them.  We modelled these in the abstract in the SAWG work (attached, see Functional view, pgs 11-13, and Information view pg 8).  After further discussion, I believe that what he means is abstract services, more about the "what" than the details of the "how".

A good analogy that I would use is to draw your attention to the distinction between the CSS SLE Cross Support Reference Model, CCSDS 910.4-B-2<https://public.ccsds.org/Pubs/910x4b2e1.pdf>, and the actual SLE service specs, like Space Link Extension--Return All Frames Service Specification, CCSDS 911.1-B-4<https://public.ccsds.org/Pubs/911x1b4.pdf>.  The first is all about services in the abstract, which is, I believe, where MPS is exploring today.  The second is actually a fully specified, interoperable, service spec that defines, in a directly implementable way, services, operations, PDUs, and data exchanges.  Two different documents.  And, to make the point clearer (I hope) the actual data that is being transferred by SLE R-AF is CCSDS space link data frames, and those are defined separately in yet other documents.  This sort of layering is a key feature of how the bulk of CCSDS standards are defined.

The fact that these distinctions were not made clear in earlier planning is not an excuse for not doing the right thing now, as the work is actually getting moving.

As for the Doodle.  I'll do it today.  You will have to forgive me since I have been somewhat preoccupied with family matters.  My wife's mother was in the hospital while we were in San Antonio, she returned home under hospice care and just passed away on Saturday night.  On Thursday we have to fly to Florida for the funeral.

Regards, Peter

From: Mario Merri <Mario.Merri at esa.int>
Date: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 11:07 AM
To: Peter Shames <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>
Cc: CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org>, Nestor Peccia <Nestor.Peccia at esa.int>
Subject: Re: [CESG] Fw: REMINDER: Draft Notes of CESG meeting on 15th May 2017

Peter,

>>During CESG discussion three other areas (CSS, SIS, SOIS) also supported the SEA AD position
I do not recall that there was such an unconditioned support of your position from all the other (NASA) ADs. But I might be wrong and it would be nice to hear directly from them.

I recall that the MP&S WG has discussed the matter in San Antonio and have unanimously (i.e. including all the NASA and JPL representatives) came up with the following internal statement:

"We discussed this point and the whole WG confirmed that we want one BB and not two, especially taking into account that:

1. There is a logical link between information model and services (the information model is service aware, although the data formats can be used without services) hence we somehow must think about the services also when defining the information model (e.g. Grouping if the entities, ...)

2. We spent a lot of effort in ensuring the resources required for this BB project (writing the book + 2 agencies committed resources for prototyping). the BB will earliest be published in 2020-21. We do not want to start doing the same effort gathering exercise for a second BB just for services to be published in 2025-26!!

3. The BB project in its current scope approved by CESG and CMC clearly has both services and information model in it. Peter objected already back then but was overruled by everyone else."

Could you please participate to the doodle so that I can establish a date for the webex? Otherwise we do not make the CMC.

Many thanks,

__Mario

From:        "Shames, Peter M (312B)" <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>
To:        "Nestor.Peccia at esa.int" <Nestor.Peccia at esa.int>, "CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec(cesg at mailman.ccsds.org)" <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org>
Date:        23/05/2017 18:46
Subject:        Re: [CESG] Fw: REMINDER: Draft Notes of CESG meeting on 15th May 2017
Sent by:        "CESG" <cesg-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org>
________________________________

Ciao Nestor,

Please see attached edits, applied to the version you last sent out.

Cheers, Peter

From: CESG <cesg-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org> on behalf of Nestor Peccia <Nestor.Peccia at esa.int>
Date: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 1:06 AM
To: CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org>
Subject: [CESG] Fw: REMINDER: Draft Notes of CESG meeting on 15th May 2017

Dear Margherita, Peter, Jonathan, Scott, Wallace

Please insert your comment (if any) into the last file sent by Erik.

ciao
nestor
----- Forwarded by Nestor Peccia/esoc/ESA on 23/05/2017 10:02 -----

From:        "Barkley, Erik J (3970)" <erik.j.barkley at jpl.nasa.gov>
To:        "Nestor.Peccia at esa.int" <Nestor.Peccia at esa.int>
Cc:        "CESG -- CCSDS-Engineering Steering Group (cesg at mailman.ccsds.org) (cesg at mailman.ccsds.org)" <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org>
Date:        22/05/2017 23:05
Subject:        RE: [CESG] REMINDER: Draft Notes of CESG meeting on 15th May 2017
________________________________

Nestor,

Attached please find my comments on the draft notes. I have added them to the inputs you have already received from Mario, Gilles, and Brigitte.

Best regards,
-Erik

From: CESG [mailto:cesg-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org] On Behalf Of Nestor.Peccia at esa.int
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2017 11:42 PM
To: CCSDS Exec <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org>
Subject: [CESG] REMINDER: Draft Notes of CESG meeting on 15th May 2017

R E M I N D E R  (w/o attachments)

==========================

Dear all,

Please find attached the draft notes of our meeting and the updated presentation used during our discussion. I have literally (with small grammatical changes) include the text of the pptx into the word document.

[attachment "d0.1-CESG-Spring-17 Notes.docx" deleted by Nestor Peccia/esoc/ESA] [attachment "CESG S17 Meeting V1.pptx" deleted by Nestor Peccia/esoc/ESA]

Your comments at the latest by Wednesday 24th May 2017 cob

and thanks again for your effort to complete all agenda items during our 9 hrs meeting.

ciao
nestor
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