[SLS-CC] C&S Pasadena meeting, draft minutes

Mon Apr 27 19:18:28 UTC 2015

Wai, 

Please note that the DVB-S2 Green Bookproject was approved by CCSDS management, according to CCSDS organization, with:

-          CNES as (single)book editor

-          DLR, ESA, FSA,NASA and UKSA as monitoring agencies

http://cwe.ccsds.org/fm/Lists/Projects/DispForm.aspx?ID=360

According to CCSDS organization,

http://public.ccsds.org/publications/archive/A02x1y4c1.pdf

a green book is an “informational report”,without any requirements about exhaustivity. In particular, it has not to be afull justification report of the Recommended Standard, a full design definitionreport, or a full user manual.

CNES will provide a new draft version ofthe DVB-S2 green book, taking into account WG comments, in the following weeks,as agreed with the WG.

Wai, we would be grateful, in case you respond to AI_15-6about this book, that you make accurate comments, indicating in your commentsthe section, the page and the sentence you are dealing with.

best regardsJean-Luc
      From: "Fong, Wai H. (GSFC-5670)" <wai.h.fong at nasa.gov>
 To: "Massimo.Bertinelli at esa.int" <Massimo.Bertinelli at esa.int>; Jean-luc Gerner <jeanluc.gerner at yahoo.com> 
Cc: "Kazz, Greg J (JPL-312B)[Jet Propulsion Laboratory]" <greg.j.kazz at jpl.nasa.gov>; "sls-cc at mailman.ccsds.org" <sls-cc at mailman.ccsds.org>; "Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int" <Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>; Issler Jean-Luc <jean-luc.issler at cnes.fr>; "Sank, Victor J. (GSFC-560.0)[AS and D, Inc.]" <victor.j.sank at nasa.gov> 
 Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 4:57 PM
 Subject: Re: [SLS-CC] C&S Pasadena meeting, draft minutes

Jean-Luc,
in the past we had books that were primarily the writing of one agency, the CDMA Blue book and Green book.  However, because those books were written by GSFC, it does not mean that the source material for the studies and data are only by us.  The protocol has been in use for decades and there are many agencies using the protocol.  Therefore, although GSFC led the writing, we rely on many decades of experience from many sources.  It is not effectively one agencies work.  Also, you might recall, Enrico had a large hand in crafting the books and directing the final products because ESA is another agency with experience in the protocol.  And before they were adopted, they met the concerns of every agency.
The DVB-S2 protocol is a new protocol for a space to ground link and it is an extremely complex protocol.  It is by and large, the sole work of CNES.  No agency has  experience in it's implementation and so it is important to document as much as possible all of the engineering issues that an agency would have in its implementation.  Now this is typically done before the Blue Book and the Green Book would just be a compilation of the studies done to support the proposal as a standard.  However, the situation with this protocol, (but it is not alone),  is that many of the implementation issues were not addressed prior to the Blue book.  So this is the situation we are now confronted with.   That is how to correct this obvious  anachronism.  My hope is that through the leadership of Massimo and Enrico, and with your agency's cooperation, we can produce a Green Book that addresses my concerns and others. Ultimately, I'd like to see a product that helps us implement the protocol without having to perform a lengthy research project of our own.
To your other point, as you know, the LDPC slicing effort was indeed an effort of GSFC with some collaboration from JPL, Gian-Paolo and other members.  The effort went into the C&S blue book, which as far as I know, a compendium document with efforts of many agencies in the past.  I don't understand this comparison with the DVB-S2 green book which by all admission is the work of a single agency.  If you want to clearly state your point, I would be more than happy to address it. 
Best regards,
Wai

From: "Massimo.Bertinelli at esa.int" <Massimo.Bertinelli at esa.int>
Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 3:28 AM
To: Jean-luc Gerner <jeanluc.gerner at yahoo.com>
Cc: Greg Kazz <greg.j.kazz at jpl.nasa.gov>, "sls-cc at mailman.ccsds.org" <sls-cc at mailman.ccsds.org>, Enrico Vassallo <Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>, Issler Jean-Luc <jean-luc.issler at cnes.fr>
Subject: Re: [SLS-CC] C&S Pasadena meeting, draft minutes

Dear Jean-Luc and all, 

thank you for reading carefully the minutes.
As far as the DVB-S2 GB is concerned, as long as it is a project under SLS/C&S, I believe it's up to me as Chairman to set the tone for the discussion, independently from how things are done in other areas or other GBs.
You may well disagree with my approach, obviously, and you can raise this to whatever level you feel appropriate. I'm copying Gian Paolo so that, as Area Director, is informed on the situation.

Coming to the actual comments received, you may have noticed how I pointed to a CNES past paper that at least partially addressed these issues. Instead of fighting the comment, wouldn't it be more constructive on your side
to copy the material already available into the Green Book, possibly building on it as appropriate?
To the best of my understanding, the comments on the GB were meant to improve it.
Concerning the reply you are asking me to add, I'm afraid I have no memory at all of it from the discussion, and I usually type my notes real-time.
In any case, I would consider it rather damaging to the DVB-S2 GB effort. Having the comment on Doppler being raised, the GB discussion would need to stop until RFM has dealt with the issue. Is this really what you want?

Best regards, 
Massimo 

---------------------------------------------------
Massimo Bertinelli
Communication Systems Engineer
ESA/Estec

Tel. +31 (0)71 5653435
-------------------------------------------------- 

From:        Jean-luc Gerner <jeanluc.gerner at yahoo.com>
To:        "Massimo.Bertinelli at esa.int" <Massimo.Bertinelli at esa.int>,
Cc:        "Kazz, Greg J (313B)" <greg.j.kazz at jpl.nasa.gov>, "Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int" <Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>, "sls-cc at mailman.ccsds.org" <sls-cc at mailman.ccsds.org>, Issler Jean-Luc <jean-luc.issler at cnes.fr>, Millerioux Jean-Pierre <jean-pierre.millerioux at cnes.fr>, Moury Gilles <gilles.moury at cnes.fr>
Date:        01/04/2015 03:26
Subject:        Re: [SLS-CC] C&S Pasadena meeting, draft minutes

Massimo, 

Hope you had a nice trip back. 
Thanks for the report. 
We take note of the reporting you made in section 2.7 of the DVB-S2 GB update.

We note Wai Fong’s remark concerning the one-agency contribution for this GB. We would like to remind that this is common practice, as agencies are all too happy that one agency volunteers to do the GB drafting job); It was the case recently for the LDPC add-on in the TM Channel C&S GB. It was also the case not only of the 415-0G1 CDMA via DRS Green Book but also of the Blue Book itself 415-1B1. I wish Wai Fong showed as nitty-gritty with the current LDPC Slicing project of C&S which deals with NORMATIVE material and still is a single-agency project! 

Outside SLS, we could also mention the current CFDP GB project in SIS  or the Navigation GB project in MOIMS, which are both single-agency projects.

Concerning Doppler/Doppler-rate questions, we would appreciate if you could report on CNES’s reply: “CNES mentioned that Doppler, if it were to be addressed, should be discussed in the frame of the RFM books; it has to be noted that the RFM WG never deemed it necessary – so far – to address Doppler in GBs, such as the GB on BW-Eff Modulations”.

best regards 
Jean-Luc 

From: "Massimo.Bertinelli at esa.int" <Massimo.Bertinelli at esa.int>
To: Space Link Coding & Synchronization Working Group <sls-cc at mailman.ccsds.org>
Cc: "Kazz, Greg J (313B)" <greg.j.kazz at jpl.nasa.gov>;Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int 
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 6:11 PM
Subject: [SLS-CC] C&S Pasadena meeting, draft minutes 

Dear all, 

thank you for the fruitful C&S meeting. 
Please find attached the draft minutes, including the action items.
Have a look at your earliest convenience and let me know your comments.
I'll publish the final version in 2 weeks time (12 April).

Best regards, 
Massimo 

---------------------------------------------------
Massimo Bertinelli
Communication Systems Engineer
ESA/Estec

Tel. +31 (0)71 5653435
-------------------------------------------------- 
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