[Sis-dtn] [EXTERNAL] RE: Special use of sequence number in bundle creation time stamp

Wed Aug 9 15:55:54 UTC 2023

Scott,

   Understood, that could be an issue. Our original proposal was only based on source ID as the timestamp is now. We have not discussed the addition Felix has proposed.

Kind regards,

     Jonathan Wilmot

CCSDS SOIS Area Director
GSFC DTN Systems Engineer
cFS Architecture
Cell 301-751-2658

From: sburleig.sb at gmail.com <sburleig.sb at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2023 11:50 AM
To: Wilmot, Jonathan J. (GSFC-580.0)[VANTAGE SYSTEMS INC] <jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov>
Cc: Singh, Somendra {Simon} (GSFC-5820) <simon.singh at nasa.gov>; 'Felix Flentge' <Felix.Flentge at esa.int>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <sis-dtn at mailman.ccsds.org>
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] Special use of sequence number in bundle creation time stamp

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Hi, Jonathan.  I haven't thought through this in depth, but off the top of my head I would cite Felix's remark that "In case 10 with different destination endpoint IDs, the BPA has to guarantee that the same values can only appear with different bundle creation times!"  If the spacecraft has no accurate clock then the bundle creation time will always be zero, so this case apparently can't be supported.  With a little imagination I suspect we can think of other cases that will also be problematic.

The processing of bundle primary blocks is already complex.  I don't think it's advisable to make it any more complicated than it already is.

Scott

From: Wilmot, Jonathan J. (GSFC-580.0)[VANTAGE SYSTEMS INC] <jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov<mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2023 8:43 AM
To: sburleig.sb at gmail.com<mailto:sburleig.sb at gmail.com>
Cc: Singh, Somendra {Simon} (GSFC-5820) <simon.singh at nasa.gov<mailto:simon.singh at nasa.gov>>; 'Felix Flentge' <Felix.Flentge at esa.int<mailto:Felix.Flentge at esa.int>>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <sis-dtn at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] Special use of sequence number in bundle creation time stamp

Scott,

   I am not seeing how it makes the original use case more difficult. The timestamp is still time and a sequence number in context of a given source EID. It may help the original use case for systems that are having time issues.

   I may be missing something, could you please add more detail on the issue(s)?

Kind regards,

     Jonathan Wilmot

CCSDS SOIS Area Director
GSFC DTN Systems Engineer
cFS Architecture
Cell 301-751-2658

From: sburleig.sb at gmail.com<mailto:sburleig.sb at gmail.com> <sburleig.sb at gmail.com<mailto:sburleig.sb at gmail.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2023 11:31 AM
To: 'Felix Flentge' <Felix.Flentge at esa.int<mailto:Felix.Flentge at esa.int>>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <sis-dtn at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Cc: Singh, Somendra {Simon} (GSFC-5820) <simon.singh at nasa.gov<mailto:simon.singh at nasa.gov>>; Wilmot, Jonathan J. (GSFC-580.0)[VANTAGE SYSTEMS INC] <jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov<mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] Special use of sequence number in bundle creation time stamp

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Hi, Felix.  One thing to keep in mind is that the purpose of the sequence number in the bundle creation timestamp is to distinguish among bundles that have the same bundle creation time.  This can occur when bundles are created at a very high rate or when bundle creation time is zero due to the absence of an accurate clock.

I would suggest that using bundle creation timestamp sequence numbers for other purposes makes it more difficult to use those numbers for their original purpose.

If sequence numbering of bundles in these various ways is important, I think it would be better to encode those numbers (and the flags describing their significance) in an immutable extension block, i.e., an extension block that is one of the additional targets of a block integrity block covering the primary block.

Scott

From: SIS-DTN <sis-dtn-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org>> On Behalf Of Felix Flentge via SIS-DTN
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2023 7:43 AM
To: Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN <sis-dtn at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Cc: Singh, Somendra {Simon} (GSFC-5820) <simon.singh at nasa.gov<mailto:simon.singh at nasa.gov>>; Wilmot, Jonathan J. (GSFC-580.0)[VANTAGE SYSTEMS INC] <jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov<mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov>>
Subject: [Sis-dtn] Special use of sequence number in bundle creation time stamp

Dear All,

I think we have had some initial exchange on the use of the sequence number in the bundle creation timestamp some time ago. Meanwhile, we had a number of side meetings with Jonathan, Simon and others to further discuss the topic of 'flows', compressed bundle reporting and network management.

We have arrived at a point where we think that it makes sense to allow using the sequence number in the primary header for identifying gaps in sequences of bundles or to even allow for in-sequence delivery.

The basic idea is that the sequence number does not get reset to zero but is incrementing by one until a specified maximum. Further we might use different, individual sequence numbers per source node ID or per destination endpoint ID. Such a behaviour might be governed by policy or even indicated in the Primary Block's Processing Control Flags, like

  1.  Use two bits to specify whether the creation timestamp sequence number is used in special way:

  *   00 - single sequence number - no specific usage
  *   01 - an individual sequence number is used per source node id
  *   10 - an individual sequence number is used per destination endpoint id
  *   11 - reserved (until we find a good usage; maybe individual sequence number per next hop)

In case 10 with different destination endpoint IDs, the BPA has to guarantee that the same values can only appear with different bundle creation times!

  1.  Use of two bits to indicate the maximum length of the sequence number (00 above) or individual sequence numbers (01 and 10 above):

  *   00 - sequence numbers are assigned somehow (reset to zero, randomly, ..)
  *   01 - increasing sequence number up to 2^16-1
  *   10 - increasing sequence number up to 2^32-1
  *   11 - increasing sequence number up to 2^64-1
My main questions:

  1.  Does it make sense to use flags in the primary header for this purpose or is it sufficient to document that sequence numbers can be used in that way and leave it up to policy to specify certain behaviours? I have a slight preference for using the BPCF as it seems more formal and could ease interoperability (and the sequence number is in the primary header, so why not indicate it there).
  2.  If we want to use BPCF, what is the way to specify this? Should we / do we need to go IETF or could CCSDS be sufficient (to start with)? Ideally we would use some of the reserved first 16 bits (e.g. Bit 7 - 10)
  3.  No matter whether we want to use BCPF or not, I think something should end up in the CCSDS BB as soon as possible. So, maybe there is a chance for a late RID (if it does not delay the overall publication process). We should start discussing (maybe tomorrow).

Regards,
Felix

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