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<p class="MsoNormal">Scott,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Understood, that could be an issue. Our original proposal was only based on source ID as the timestamp is now. We have not discussed the addition Felix has proposed.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ligatures:none">Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ligatures:none"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ligatures:none"> Jonathan Wilmot<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ligatures:none"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ligatures:none">CCSDS SOIS Area Director<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ligatures:none">GSFC DTN Systems Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ligatures:none">cFS Architecture<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ligatures:none">Cell 301-751-2658<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="mso-ligatures:none">From:</span></b><span style="mso-ligatures:none"> sburleig.sb@gmail.com <sburleig.sb@gmail.com>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 9, 2023 11:50 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Wilmot, Jonathan J. (GSFC-580.0)[VANTAGE SYSTEMS INC] <jonathan.j.wilmot@nasa.gov><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Singh, Somendra {Simon} (GSFC-5820) <simon.singh@nasa.gov>; 'Felix Flentge' <Felix.Flentge@esa.int>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] Special use of sequence number in bundle creation time stamp<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;mso-ligatures:none">CAUTION:</span></b><span style="color:black;mso-ligatures:none">
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi, Jonathan. I haven’t thought through this in depth, but off the top of my head I would cite Felix’s remark that “<b><span lang="EN-GB">In case 10 with different destination endpoint IDs, the BPA has to guarantee that the same values
can only appear with different bundle creation times!</span></b>” If the spacecraft has no accurate clock then the bundle creation time will always be zero, so this case apparently can’t be supported. With a little imagination I suspect we can think of other
cases that will also be problematic.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The processing of bundle primary blocks is already complex. I don’t think it’s advisable to make it any more complicated than it already is.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Scott<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="mso-ligatures:none">From:</span></b><span style="mso-ligatures:none"> Wilmot, Jonathan J. (GSFC-580.0)[VANTAGE SYSTEMS INC] <<a href="mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot@nasa.gov">jonathan.j.wilmot@nasa.gov</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 9, 2023 8:43 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Singh, Somendra {Simon} (GSFC-5820) <<a href="mailto:simon.singh@nasa.gov">simon.singh@nasa.gov</a>>; 'Felix Flentge' <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] Special use of sequence number in bundle creation time stamp<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Scott,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> I am not seeing how it makes the original use case more difficult. The timestamp is still time and a sequence number in context of a given source EID. It may help the original use case for systems that are having time issues.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> I may be missing something, could you please add more detail on the issue(s)?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ligatures:none">Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ligatures:none"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ligatures:none"> Jonathan Wilmot<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ligatures:none"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ligatures:none">CCSDS SOIS Area Director<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ligatures:none">GSFC DTN Systems Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ligatures:none">cFS Architecture<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ligatures:none">Cell 301-751-2658<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="mso-ligatures:none">From:</span></b><span style="mso-ligatures:none">
<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a> <<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 9, 2023 11:31 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Felix Flentge' <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Singh, Somendra {Simon} (GSFC-5820) <<a href="mailto:simon.singh@nasa.gov">simon.singh@nasa.gov</a>>; Wilmot, Jonathan J. (GSFC-580.0)[VANTAGE SYSTEMS INC] <<a href="mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot@nasa.gov">jonathan.j.wilmot@nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] Special use of sequence number in bundle creation time stamp<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;mso-ligatures:none">CAUTION:</span></b><span style="color:black;mso-ligatures:none">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;mso-ligatures:none">This email originated from outside of NASA. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments. Use the "Report Message" button to report suspicious messages to the NASA SOC.</span><span style="color:black;mso-ligatures:none">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="mso-ligatures:none"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi, Felix. One thing to keep in mind is that the purpose of the sequence number in the bundle creation timestamp is to distinguish among bundles that have the same bundle creation time. This can occur when bundles are created at a very
high rate or when bundle creation time is zero due to the absence of an accurate clock.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I would suggest that using bundle creation timestamp sequence numbers for other purposes makes it more difficult to use those numbers for their original purpose.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If sequence numbering of bundles in these various ways is important, I think it would be better to encode those numbers (and the flags describing their significance) in an immutable extension block, i.e., an extension block that is one
of the additional targets of a block integrity block covering the primary block.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Scott<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="mso-ligatures:none">From:</span></b><span style="mso-ligatures:none"> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Felix Flentge via SIS-DTN<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 9, 2023 7:43 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Singh, Somendra {Simon} (GSFC-5820) <<a href="mailto:simon.singh@nasa.gov">simon.singh@nasa.gov</a>>; Wilmot, Jonathan J. (GSFC-580.0)[VANTAGE SYSTEMS INC] <<a href="mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot@nasa.gov">jonathan.j.wilmot@nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Sis-dtn] Special use of sequence number in bundle creation time stamp<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Dear All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">I think we have had some initial exchange on the use of the sequence number in the bundle creation timestamp some time ago. Meanwhile, we had a number of side meetings with Jonathan, Simon and others to further discuss
the topic of ‘flows’, compressed bundle reporting and network management.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">We have arrived at a point where we think that it makes sense to allow using the sequence number in the primary header for identifying gaps in sequences of bundles or to even allow for in-sequence delivery.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">The basic idea is that the sequence number does not get reset to zero but is incrementing by one until a specified maximum. Further we might use different, individual sequence numbers per source node ID or per destination
endpoint ID. Such a behaviour might be governed by policy or even indicated in the Primary Block’s Processing Control Flags, like<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo1"><span lang="EN-GB">Use two bits to specify whether the creation timestamp sequence number is used in special way:<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><span lang="EN-GB">00 – single sequence number - no specific usage<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><span lang="EN-GB">01 – an individual sequence number is used per source node id<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><span lang="EN-GB">10 – an individual sequence number is used per destination endpoint id<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><span lang="EN-GB">11 – reserved (until we find a good usage; maybe individual sequence number per next hop)<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB">In case 10 with different destination endpoint IDs, the BPA has to guarantee that the same values can only appear with different bundle creation times!<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="2" type="1">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo1"><span lang="EN-GB">Use of two bits to indicate the maximum length of the sequence number (00 above) or individual sequence numbers (01 and 10 above):<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
<span lang="EN-GB">00 - sequence numbers are assigned somehow (reset to zero, randomly, ..)</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
<span lang="EN-GB">01 - increasing sequence number up to 2^16-1<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
<span lang="EN-GB">10 - increasing sequence number up to 2^32-1<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
<span lang="EN-GB">11 - increasing sequence number up to 2^64-1<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">My main questions:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo4"><span lang="EN-GB">Does it make sense to use flags in the primary header for this purpose or is it sufficient to document that sequence numbers can be used in that way and leave it
up to policy to specify certain behaviours? I have a slight preference for using the BPCF as it seems more formal and could ease interoperability (and the sequence number is in the primary header, so why not indicate it there).<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo4"><span lang="EN-GB">If we want to use BPCF, what is the way to specify this? Should we / do we need to go IETF or could CCSDS be sufficient (to start with)? Ideally we would use some
of the reserved first 16 bits (e.g. Bit 7 – 10)<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo4"><span lang="EN-GB">No matter whether we want to use BCPF or not, I think something should end up in the CCSDS BB as soon as possible. So, maybe there is a chance for a late RID (if
it does not delay the overall publication process). We should start discussing (maybe tomorrow).<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ligatures:none;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ligatures:none;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Felix<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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