[SIS-CFDPV1] Blue Origin -- CFDP Question

Sat Mar 4 08:41:50 UTC 2023

Sure,

I suggest that we take your wording.

The diagram is great. I would maybe add some colour coding to indicate the different features. Seems to fit with our plan to make the core protocol easier to implement and mark more features as optional. I think it could be an Annex to the Blue Book or in an updated Green Book.

The Green Book definitely needs updating and it would also nice to update it with flight experience (I would contribute from the ESA side). We should discuss at next CCSDS and see whether we find somebody willing to take the lead on that (and I am quite busy this year with some other books).

Regards,
Felix

From: Andy Willms <AWillms at blueorigin.com>
Sent: 03 March 2023 18:35
To: Felix Flentge <Felix.Flentge at esa.int>; sis-cfdpv1 at mailman.ccsds.org; dstanton at keltik.co.uk
Cc: Sergey Savelyev <ssavelyev at blueorigin.com>
Subject: RE: Blue Origin -- CFDP Question

Hello Felix!

THANKS!! One of our goals in using the protocol is to of course to be compatible with other implementations, so if yours implements it in that way we should follow suit.

As for the changes to the pink sheets I would actually recommend making it even more explicit...

"One or more ... messages may be optionally included and the value of each TLV shall be constructed as indicated in..."

Or perhaps even more useful would be class diagram added as an appendix to help understand the relations between the different constructs :
[cid:image007.png at 01D94E7C.D7E635C0]

Unfortunately as written you need to read a lot of that document to understand the relations between things, I know having the roadmap above would've helped me a lot if I had it. Please let me know if some part of the above diagram doesn't mesh with the intent as I'm still trying to grasp all of the interactions between things in the Blue Book.

Thanks again!

Andy Willms
AERS SW Applications Engineer III
Blue Origin - Orbital Launch Site
8082 Space Commerce Way
Merritt Island, FL 32953
(C): 716-213-8502

From: Felix Flentge <Felix.Flentge at esa.int<mailto:Felix.Flentge at esa.int>>
Sent: Friday, March 3, 2023 5:06 AM
To: Andy Willms <AWillms at blueorigin.com<mailto:AWillms at blueorigin.com>>; sis-cfdpv1 at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-cfdpv1 at mailman.ccsds.org>; dstanton at keltik.co.uk<mailto:dstanton at keltik.co.uk>
Cc: Sergey Savelyev <ssavelyev at blueorigin.com<mailto:ssavelyev at blueorigin.com>>
Subject: RE: Blue Origin -- CFDP Question

[EXTERNAL]
Dear Andy,

I am always happy to see more people using the standard (and actually using features I have not seen being used in operations: SFO I would hope to see replaced by CFDP over Bundle Protocol in the future and proxy operations are typically replaced by mission/agency specific commanding outside CFDP).

Regarding your question, my interpretation (and implementation) is that 'one or more' means 'one or more TVL' and not 'multiple messages in a single TVL' (slightly less efficient but much easier to parse).
(The Green Book is not normative and may contain some mistakes.)

So, if nobody objects, we should clarify this in the upcoming pink sheets to the standard. Would the formulation

One or more ... messages may be optionally included and each shall be constructed as indicated in ...

be clear enough?

Regards,
Felix

From: Andy Willms <AWillms at blueorigin.com<mailto:AWillms at blueorigin.com>>
Sent: 28 February 2023 20:44
To: sis-cfdpv1 at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-cfdpv1 at mailman.ccsds.org>; Felix Flentge <Felix.Flentge at esa.int<mailto:Felix.Flentge at esa.int>>; dstanton at keltik.co.uk<mailto:dstanton at keltik.co.uk>
Cc: Sergey Savelyev <ssavelyev at blueorigin.com<mailto:ssavelyev at blueorigin.com>>
Subject: Blue Origin -- CFDP Question

Greetings!

While reading CCSDS 727.0-B-5<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.us%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Feur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Fpublic.ccsds.org*2FPubs*2F727x0b5.pdf%26data%3D05*7C01*7CFelix.Flentge*40esa.int*7Cce5078e443f340ead37e08db19c43ea1*7C9a5cacd02bef4dd7ac5c7ebe1f54f495*7C0*7C0*7C638132102886083693*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000*7C*7C*7C%26sdata%3DZ1*2FETNTTl7c2pAv8fQAK50d9PkaffpdtC6g8jUETcfg*3D%26reserved%3D0__%3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!OvyHrJTNo7faK-qlAog!J4ScHDPNlA7oi9Qz4uX1n33XPyD77IZR9s4quOU5hswtjX3q5DUdNZ-eSbNiEV30Iu7FQmIeKInBpVK1H5pNDqmOug%24&data=05%7C01%7CFelix.Flentge%40esa.int%7C4d9765b47ae94aff430a08db1c0db0eb%7C9a5cacd02bef4dd7ac5c7ebe1f54f495%7C0%7C0%7C638134617351073993%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=NiOnUOr%2BYVNnkRrJm%2FF%2FFbjWHkJNcJ9yGSwaYHWT%2FCo%3D&reserved=0> and CCSDS 720.2-G-4<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.us%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Feur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Fpublic.ccsds.org*2FPubs*2F720x2g4.pdf%26data%3D05*7C01*7CFelix.Flentge*40esa.int*7Cce5078e443f340ead37e08db19c43ea1*7C9a5cacd02bef4dd7ac5c7ebe1f54f495*7C0*7C0*7C638132102886083693*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000*7C*7C*7C%26sdata%3D2KNxfB74ZEn9v1jglzzF61*2BAuJ903JcKOpVwiAxDXkw*3D%26reserved%3D0__%3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!OvyHrJTNo7faK-qlAog!J4ScHDPNlA7oi9Qz4uX1n33XPyD77IZR9s4quOU5hswtjX3q5DUdNZ-eSbNiEV30Iu7FQmIeKInBpVK1H5qe_BpzZg%24&data=05%7C01%7CFelix.Flentge%40esa.int%7C4d9765b47ae94aff430a08db1c0db0eb%7C9a5cacd02bef4dd7ac5c7ebe1f54f495%7C0%7C0%7C638134617351073993%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zzMBEY%2FNpEVT4hcUHbtRxgO7R4DmpfgI3S6Td0caRjc%3D&reserved=0> I noticed what might be a typo/ambiguity in the document(s) and was hoping to get some clarification.

Based on section 3.7.2 in the green book a SFO Message to User can contain multiple 'Msgs to User'. That is to say, a single user message TLV can contain one or more reserved user messages. The blue book seems to convey this behavior in section B.2.4.3 with the wording "One or more SFO Messages to User may be optionally included...":
[cid:image008.png at 01D94E7C.D7E635C0][cid:image009.png at 01D94E7C.D7E635C0]

On the other hand 'Proxy Message to User' does not seem to indicate that in section 3.2.2 of the green book, but the same wordage is used in section 6.2.3.3<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.us%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F6.2.3.3__%3B!!OvyHrJTNo7faK-qlAog!J4ScHDPNlA7oi9Qz4uX1n33XPyD77IZR9s4quOU5hswtjX3q5DUdNZ-eSbNiEV30Iu7FQmIeKInBpVK1H5oPUPsEnA%24&data=05%7C01%7CFelix.Flentge%40esa.int%7C4d9765b47ae94aff430a08db1c0db0eb%7C9a5cacd02bef4dd7ac5c7ebe1f54f495%7C0%7C0%7C638134617351073993%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=uEgYpIewibWWuC7ePtZjPJLgwtvFWDoyLvghpVSuhuE%3D&reserved=0> of the blue book:
[cid:image010.png at 01D94E7C.D7E635C0][cid:image011.png at 01D94E7C.D7E635C0]

Which leads to my question, is the wording "one or more" for the following sections in the blue book describing the existence of one or more TLVs in a given PDU or the existence of one or more reserved messages in that single TLV?

*         Section 6.2.3.3<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.us%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F6.2.3.3__%3B!!OvyHrJTNo7faK-qlAog!J4ScHDPNlA7oi9Qz4uX1n33XPyD77IZR9s4quOU5hswtjX3q5DUdNZ-eSbNiEV30Iu7FQmIeKInBpVK1H5oPUPsEnA%24&data=05%7C01%7CFelix.Flentge%40esa.int%7C4d9765b47ae94aff430a08db1c0db0eb%7C9a5cacd02bef4dd7ac5c7ebe1f54f495%7C0%7C0%7C638134617351073993%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=uEgYpIewibWWuC7ePtZjPJLgwtvFWDoyLvghpVSuhuE%3D&reserved=0>

*         Section 6.2.3.4<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.us%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F6.2.3.4__%3B!!OvyHrJTNo7faK-qlAog!J4ScHDPNlA7oi9Qz4uX1n33XPyD77IZR9s4quOU5hswtjX3q5DUdNZ-eSbNiEV30Iu7FQmIeKInBpVK1H5qxUudADA%24&data=05%7C01%7CFelix.Flentge%40esa.int%7C4d9765b47ae94aff430a08db1c0db0eb%7C9a5cacd02bef4dd7ac5c7ebe1f54f495%7C0%7C0%7C638134617351073993%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QONb95Ia6wjybfV8NCIqOVvZFdBKXvwEaEddd5eRUEs%3D&reserved=0>

*         Section 6.2.3.5<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.us%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F6.2.3.5__%3B!!OvyHrJTNo7faK-qlAog!J4ScHDPNlA7oi9Qz4uX1n33XPyD77IZR9s4quOU5hswtjX3q5DUdNZ-eSbNiEV30Iu7FQmIeKInBpVK1H5p9CmCDBg%24&data=05%7C01%7CFelix.Flentge%40esa.int%7C4d9765b47ae94aff430a08db1c0db0eb%7C9a5cacd02bef4dd7ac5c7ebe1f54f495%7C0%7C0%7C638134617351073993%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=GekSBYKtAu6W%2BOiieLyZUO7nzuR%2BzKyyyqT%2FblASEAs%3D&reserved=0>

*         Section 6.2.5.3<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.us%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F6.2.5.3__%3B!!OvyHrJTNo7faK-qlAog!J4ScHDPNlA7oi9Qz4uX1n33XPyD77IZR9s4quOU5hswtjX3q5DUdNZ-eSbNiEV30Iu7FQmIeKInBpVK1H5p40HR3UA%24&data=05%7C01%7CFelix.Flentge%40esa.int%7C4d9765b47ae94aff430a08db1c0db0eb%7C9a5cacd02bef4dd7ac5c7ebe1f54f495%7C0%7C0%7C638134617351073993%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=TVYrLx82oojYTKT1OBK0i6nLTlaDVcUMUHCuC30Gd28%3D&reserved=0>

*         Section B2.4.3

*         Section B2.4.4

*         Section B2.4.5

Perhaps asked another way, assuming I wanted to set 3 fault handler overrides could that be done with the following structure
[cid:image012.png at 01D94E7C.D7E635C0]

Or would I need to send three separate TLVs to affect the desired behavior?
[cid:image013.png at 01D94E7C.D7E635C0]

Thank you for any help you can provide!!

Andy Willms
AERS SW Applications Engineer III
Blue Origin - Orbital Launch Site
8082 Space Commerce Way
Merritt Island, FL 32953
(C): 716-213-8502

This message is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. It may contain proprietary information and/or protected content. Any unauthorised disclosure, use, retention or dissemination is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately. ESA applies appropriate organisational measures to protect personal data, in case of data privacy queries, please contact the ESA Data Protection Officer (dpo at esa.int<mailto:dpo at esa.int>).
This message is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. It may contain proprietary information and/or protected content. Any unauthorised disclosure, use, retention or dissemination is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately. ESA applies appropriate organisational measures to protect personal data, in case of data privacy queries, please contact the ESA Data Protection Officer (dpo at esa.int).
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