[CESG] CESG Special topic: 2022-7 CESG MAL RID Disposition, was Re: MAL PIDs spreadsheet

Mario Merri Mario.Merri at esa.int
Tue Jul 19 08:24:24 UTC 2022

Thank you Peter. Let me also have the chance to write down my understanding and preliminary conclusions from yesterday meeting.

Indeed, we could not go through each individual point in depth and your claims could not be challenged conclusively, however, following your presentation, below is a summary of the main faults that you reported:

  1.  Blue vs Magenta / Abstract vs Concrete
  2.  Security
  3.  Undefined terms
  4.  Missing references
  5.  Vague Definitions
  6.  PICS

My take on the points above:

  1.  The MAL is the chartered approach approved by CESG/CMC and should not be rediscussed every time. This needs to be accepted by everyone in CCSDS and put forward to potential customers as for any other CCSDS standards.
  2.  Extensive discussion and way forward agreements are already in place with the SEC WG, which includes the update of other documents (i.e. RM and GB). It would be inefficient and wrong to have every details repeated everywhere. Having said this, if clarification could be introduced in MAL this should be done.
  3.  To be discussed with WG. Clearly clarity is important, however I regard this point as editorial
  4.  To be discussed with WG. I regard this point as editorial
  5.  To be discussed with WG as probably there are misunderstandings. Certainly, this matter has not changed from the published version of MAL.
  6.  Usefulness of PICS in the context of a framework such as MAL is debatable: in fact all features are "mandatory" here, while some may be made "optional" when implementing a specific service (e.g. in M&C service).

My overall comment is that there was an overreaction for this book and the above issues could have been easily fixed during the Agency Review as done for most of the other CCSDS books.

Best regards,


From: CESG <cesg-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org> On Behalf Of Shames, Peter M (US 312B) via CESG
Sent: 18 July 2022 23:44
To: cesg at mailman.ccsds.org
Cc: Tom Gannett <thomas.gannett at tgannett.net>; Reeves, Scott (MSFC-HP27)[HOSC SERVICES CONTRACT] <scott.reeves at nasa.gov>; Mehran Sarkarati <Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int>
Subject: [CESG] CESG Special topic: 2022-7 CESG MAL RID Disposition, was Re: MAL PIDs spreadsheet

Dear All,

In order to provide a complete record of this topic in one place I just updated the CESG folder for the "2022-7 CESG MAL RID Disposition<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcwe.ccsds.org%2Fcesg%2Fdocs%2FForms%2FAllItems.aspx%3FRootFolder%3D%252Fcesg%252Fdocs%252FCWE%2520Private%252FMeetings%252F2022-7%2520CESG%2520MAL%2520RID%2520Disposition%26FolderCTID%3D0x0120008F128D83E4774A40906DD60662AC3B27%26View%3D%257B448728FC-9186-4BCF-80F0-192B39C01942%257D&data=05%7C01%7CMario.Merri%40esa.int%7Cf0f25279775f45f774f808da6906b160%7C9a5cacd02bef4dd7ac5c7ebe1f54f495%7C0%7C0%7C637937774720068057%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=l00N24A%2F7vAtwP1fZvWbaviXFsThLa8Nc00Cix0pGDs%3D&reserved=0>":


It now contains all of the materials I have provided including the PPT and XLS that were presented today, and also, for the record, a copy of the original CESG vote, the marked up document I returned to the SM&C WG, and a copy of the email trail leading to today's Special Topic telecon.

We could, if it were useful, also add copies of the other CCSDS Blue Books to which I compared the MAL BB in that Analysis document.  These are:

  1.  CSS CSTS Framework PDU (CCSDS 921.1-B-2)
  2.  SIS AMS message standard (CCSDS 735.1-B-1)
  3.  SLS Prox-1 link layer standard (CCSDS 211.0-B-6)

These should be useful for the SM&C WG to see what a cross area sampling of other normative CCSDS Blue Books look like.  Do let me know if there is anything else I need to provide.

Very best regards, Peter

From: Peter Shames <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>>
Date: Monday, July 18, 2022 at 1:46 PM
To: Erik Barkley <erik.j.barkley at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:erik.j.barkley at jpl.nasa.gov>>
Cc: CESG <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:cesg at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Subject: Re: MAL PIDs spreadsheet

Dear Erik, at al,

Thanks for the reminder to provide the SM&C WG PID response spreadsheet, along with my rejoinders, as reviewed.  I think you will find that the PPT file, "SEA MO MAL document analysis 11Jul22" accurately summarizes the intent of my original PIDs.   There are some "further clarifications", I added in lines 25-29 of this spreadsheet after reviewing the PIDs and responses.  These are highly relevant, but did not appear in the original for reasons that I think will be clear.

Related to that, there was one additional discussion topic that briefly shows up on pg 15 of the PPT, that of the PICS pro forma, but it only gets a bullet and not a separate page.  I remind you that during the meeting we did compare the one page "PICS" in the MAL BB with parts of the comparable section in the CSS CSTS Framework, 921x1b2.  I think the differences in the level of care and detail is informative.

I will acknowledge, as Mehran pointed out, that many of my comments in the original text were formed as questions.  These questions were intended to get the SM&C WG to think carefully about the issues that were being raised because they were, almost uniformly, issues and concerns that could not be repaired with any simple "From: => To:" formulation.  In my judgement that form of input is only really suitable for simple editorial repairs to a sentence or a paragraph.

These issues are much broader and more pervasive than that, and I hope that has now been made crystal clear.

Lastly, I wish to state with clarity what I think we all agreed to:

  1.  That all of the members of the CESG who did not vote in the formal poll, or who voted "Approve Unconditionally", but then added comments to the effect that they agreed with my inputs, agreed to do the following:
     *   Review the submitted PIDs, the WG dispositions, and my rejoinders in the attached Excel file.
     *   Review the summary analysis PPT file, "SEA MO MAL document analysis 11Jul22", as presented.
     *   Assess whether the statements made in this analysis are accurate when compared to the cited sections and text in the MAL BB.
     *   Provide written feedback on their assessment of this analysis and the PIDs, preferably with some of their own supporting analysis and detail.
  2.  That the MOIMS SM&C WG review all of these inputs, both from me and from these other Area Directors, and provide, after suitable discussion, their responses, including:
     *   Re-assessment of their PID responses in light of these discussions.
     *   Assessment of the written inputs from the other Area Directors.
     *   Propose their approach for remedying these issues, either by editing the document so that it remedies the issues and aligns with CCSDS Blue Book publication standards, and CCSDS BB document norms, or by agreeing to reformat it as a normative, Magenta Book, "foundational" abstract reference model.
  3.  That I, and preferably the other CESG Area Directors, meet with the SM&C WG to review this feedback and resolve any remaining issues.

IIn fact, I think that this is a significant enough concern that it would be ideal if all CESG members, including those who voted "Approve Unconditionally", would participate in this process as well.   Only in this way can we assess if there really is consensus on the path forward.

I am willing to commit to this.

For the sake of all concerned, including the WG, the Area, the CESG, our member agencies, and all of our users I think it would be best to get these issues resolved.

Best regards, Peter

From: Erik Barkley <erik.j.barkley at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:erik.j.barkley at jpl.nasa.gov>>
Date: Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:24 PM
To: Peter Shames <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>>
Cc: CESG <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:cesg at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Subject: MAL PIDs spreadsheet

Hello Peter,

As you may recall, I volunteered to take a look at the MO MAL Agency Review CESG Poll PIDs and check them against the latest MAL document.  I see the presentation, dated July 11 in the CWE for CESG, but I do not find the spreadsheet there.  Can you please either send or (probably better) post the spreadsheet?  Thank you.

Best regards,

Erik Barkley
Cross Support Services Area Director
Consultative Committee for Space Data Systems

+1 818.393.4972

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