[CESG] [Secretariat] [EXTERNAL] RID Database

Mon May 20 17:12:35 UTC 2019

Colin’s point of view is valid: that input directly into a database is elegant and simple and yields a populated portable database, but it does not take into account the vicissitudes of a multi-tiered international review process in which the comfort level of reviewers and coordinators with any given database product varies to all extremes.

Gian Paolo’s point of view is valid: that since reviewers should not be discouraged from inputting review comments by making it complicated for them, agency coordinators should be willing to accept RIDs as ASCII text or Word documents; but requiring that such RIDs be transferred to another format for delivery creates unnecessary additional work, especially since ASCII text and Word documents are universally usable and have been used as one of the delivery formats for many years without problem.

And then we have fact that those aspects of the review process that are sorely in need of improvement actually have nothing to do with input or delivery format.

So this discussion is likely to continue unabated indefinitely, but it will not be productive.

The only thing I offered at the meeting was that it seemed reasonable to agree on a standard RID-package delivery format, and I thought there was agreement that Excel should be that format. But since Gian Paolo indicates there was no agreement, I accept that the CESG failed to agree.

The solution would perhaps be to limit the delivery format to Excel spreadsheets or Word files, unless the top-level coordinator agrees to accept other formats like access databases, but recommend Excel as the preferred delivery format; but that is essentially how things are being done now, so handing down such a pronouncement seems not worth the trouble.

RID initiation (input) and agency-RID-package delivery are vastly different issues; a standardized delivery format seems desirable, but in fact the format in which RID packages are delivered has never been a big problem. The burden of achieving a standardized format can be put on the reviewer by controlling the input format, or on the coordinator by requiring that RIDs in various formats be transferred to an approved format. Where that burden should fall and whether it should fall on anyone are questions that should probably be answered before the current discussion continues, but, again, I only offer a point of view.

Logothete, L.L.C.

thomas.gannett at tgannett.net

+1 443 472 0805

From: Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int [mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int] 
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 11:13 AM
To: Thomas Gannett
Cc: 'CCSDS CESG --'
Subject: Re: RE: [Secretariat] [CESG] [EXTERNAL] RID Database

Tom, Icomplained on excel also furing the meeting   

Sent from my iPhone using IBM Verse

  _____  

On 20. May 2019, 17:06:53, thomas.gannett at tgannett.net wrote:

From: thomas.gannett at tgannett.net
To: Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int
Cc: cesg at mailman.ccsds.org
Date: 20. May 2019, 17:06:53
Subject: RE: [Secretariat] [CESG] [EXTERNAL] RID Database

Well, that’s interesting, because I clearly recall the question being put to all, whether Excel should be the standard input format for RID packages delivered to the CCSDS coordinator, and I clearly recall an affirmative response. Obviously I was at a different meeting.

The important thing, in my mind, is that the CESG thinks it has the responsibility/authority to impose some RID input tool upon agencies that may very well not want to use that tool. And as a matter of fact, the CCSDS is not a totalitarian state, but rather a consensus organization, and the CESG simply cannot dictate such things to the agencies. So the CESG can suggest as many RID input tools as we can imagine, but the CCSDS simply cannot require the use of any such tool.

Logothete, L.L.C.

thomas.gannett at tgannett.net

+1 443 472 0805 <tel:+1%20443%20472%200805> 

From: Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int [mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int] 
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 10:24 AM
To: Thomas Gannett
Cc: 'CCSDS CESG --'
Subject: RE: [Secretariat] [CESG] [EXTERNAL] RID Database

Tom, 
        sorry but I cannot recall that kind of consensus on excel and the MoMs statement I see says"It was agreed to re-assess the RID tool based on excel, that was produced by David Ross, and discuss its suitability at the mid-term Telecon." 
Regards 

Gian Paolo 

From:        "Thomas Gannett" <thomas.gannett at tgannett.net> 
To:        <Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int>, "'CCSDS CESG --'" <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org> 
Date:        20-05-19 16:18 
Subject:        RE: [Secretariat] [CESG] [EXTERNAL]  RID Database 

  _____  

Dear Colleagues:

At the CESG meeting in Mountain View, there was consensus that RID packages should be delivered to the top-level CCSDS review coordinator in Excel format.

Beyond that, CCSDS agencies (not the CCSDS, not the Secretariat, not the CESG) are responsible for conducting reviews. How agencies choose to conduct their reviews is their business. More importantly, tools/formats/ restrictions related to how agency reviewers are allowed to input RIDs are matters for each agency to determine; the only requirement at the CCSDS level is that the agency-approved RID packages be delivered in Excel format.

I personally think the CESG may have better things to do than endlessly debate the input format for RIDs, but I can only offer my opinion.

My two cents, or plugged nickel, as the case may be,

Tom

Logothete, L.L.C.

thomas.gannett at tgannett.net

+1 443 472 0805 <tel:+1%20443%20472%200805> 

From: Secretariat [ <mailto:secretariat-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org> mailto:secretariat-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org] On Behalf Of Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 4:19 AM
To: CCSDS CESG --
Subject: Re: [Secretariat] [CESG] [EXTERNAL] RID Database

Dear All, 
       I confirm my opinion in keeping the simplest possible approach to favour anybody to enter RIDs: i.e. the simple text/winword form with plenty of editing possibilities. 
Just based on experience the problem is not having a sophisticated tool to manage RIDs but rather to promote review among Agencies with proper processes. 
In other words, more than spending time/resources in access, excel, RIDzilla,MyBestWayForDoingRIDs, RIDuberAlles, etc I would push up the issue to MC for having proper Agency feedback for reviews. 

My cent....... 

Gippo 

From:        "Shames, Peter M \(312B\) via CESG" <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org> 
To:        "Colin.Haddow at esa.int" <Colin.Haddow at esa.int>, "cesg at mailman.ccsds.org" <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org> 
Date:        17-05-19 19:37 
Subject:        Re: [CESG] [EXTERNAL]  RID Database 
Sent by:        "CESG" <cesg-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org> 

  _____  

Hi Colin,

Umm.  Not to throw too much water on this, but for those of us with Macs (most of JPL uses Macs and Mac OSX), this is not in any way functional.  When I try to open it I get a message saying I need to have installed Parallels, a VM that supports Windows, and then, of course, Windows itself, and then, of course, the whole Windows Office suite that includes Access.    

That's a lot of baggage to buy and support just to submit RIDs.

Thanks for try though.  

Peter

From: CESG <cesg-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org> on behalf of Colin Haddow <Colin.Haddow at esa.int>
Date: Friday, May 17, 2019 at 7:37 AM
To: CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [CESG] RID Database

Dear all, 
                I am aware that the decision at the Mountain View Meeting with respect to the CCSDS RID database was to use an Excel based approach. However after having spent a little time on it I've uploaded an MS Access based database that could be used. This contained 4 forms; 

1.       Document Details Entry Form -        Used to enter the details of the document(s) under review. 

2.       Reviewer Details Entry Form -         Used to enter details of the reviewer(s) 

3.       RID Entry Form -                        Used to enter the RID details 

4.       RID Review Form -                        Used to review the RIDs 

5.        

The fields in the RID forms correspond pretty much to the existing CCSDS text based form with the addition of 2 fields, 1 for attachments and 1 to indicate which other RIDs the RID may be related to. 

It is also possible to produce a a Word report of the RIDs from the database using Words mail merge facility. 

In the upload there are 4 files; 

1.        <https://cwe.ccsds.org/cesg/docs/CWE%20Private/CCSDS%20Access%20Database%20Example/CCSDS%20RID%20Database.accdb> https://cwe.ccsds.org/cesg/docs/CWE%20Private/CCSDS%20Access%20Database%20Example/CCSDS%20RID%20Database.accdb -                                An empty access database with the appropriate table, forms etc. 

2.        <https://cwe.ccsds.org/cesg/docs/CWE%20Private/CCSDS%20Access%20Database%20Example/CCSDS%20RID%20Database%20Report%20Template.docx> https://cwe.ccsds.org/cesg/docs/CWE%20Private/CCSDS%20Access%20Database%20Example/CCSDS%20RID%20Database%20Report%20Template.docx -        Word document providing the template for the mail merge report. 

3.        <https://cwe.ccsds.org/cesg/docs/CWE%20Private/CCSDS%20Access%20Database%20Example/Example.accdb> https://cwe.ccsds.org/cesg/docs/CWE%20Private/CCSDS%20Access%20Database%20Example/Example.accdb -                                                        An example populated database (data used to populate it comes from an old Simple Schedule Red Review + some test data) 

4.        <https://cwe.ccsds.org/cesg/docs/CWE%20Private/CCSDS%20Access%20Database%20Example/Example%20RIDs%20Database%20Report.docx> https://cwe.ccsds.org/cesg/docs/CWE%20Private/CCSDS%20Access%20Database%20Example/Example%20RIDs%20Database%20Report.docx -                        An example report generated via mail merge from the example database. 

5.        

The above was nailed together quite quickly and I won't claim its totally bullet proof but I think it covers pretty much all that's needed. 

Anyway if you're interested please take a look. 

Cheers for now, 

Colin 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Colin R. Haddow,
HSO-GI, European Space Agency,
European Space Operations Centre,
Robert-Bosch-Str 5,
64293 Darmstadt,
Germany.

Phone; +49 6151 90 2896 <tel:+49%206151%2090%202896> 
Fax;      +49 6151 90 3010 <tel:+49%206151%2090%203010> 
E-Mail;  colin.haddow at esa.int
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