[CESG] CESG Telecon 5th September - Minute of Meeting

Tue Oct 2 13:04:34 UTC 2018

Dear Peter and All,
this matter is getting too far, and  it deserves further discussion at the 
Berlin meeting.

I invite everybody to only look into the real issue about non-consensus in 
the WG and about the ( claimed) duplication of standards.
The problem shall be tackled, beyond procedures and formalism. We (=CESG) 
have an engineering (= technical) role, and we shall aim at  resolving the 
issue on  technical grounds 

To all : the discussion shall be resumed at the Fall Meeting.
The Minute of Meeting is in its final shape and will not be updated.

Kind regards,
Margherita

--------------------------------------------------------------
Margherita di Giulio
Data Systems Infrastructure Division (OPS-GI)

European Space Agency ESA/ESOC
Robert-Bosch-Str. 5
D-64293 Darmstadt - Germany
Tel: +49-6151-902779
e-mail: Margherita.di.Giulio at esa.int

From:   "Shames, Peter M (312B)" <Peter.M.Shames at jpl.nasa.gov>
To:     "Mario.Merri at esa.int" <Mario.Merri at esa.int>
Cc:     "cesg at mailman.ccsds.org" <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org>
Date:   01/10/2018 20:00
Subject:        Re: [CESG] CESG Telecon  5th September -  Minute of 
Meeting
Sent by:        "CESG" <cesg-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org>

Dear Mario,

We have a real difference of opinion here.  I am going to leave out of the 
discussion the editorialized version of the discussions in the 
Gaithersburg CESG meeting minutes and just focus on what actually occurred 
during and leading up to this 5 Sept meeting.

During that 5 Sept meeting we did have a discussion of the following:
That the SM&C WG did not reach consensus on the contents of the Technical 
Note.  In point of fact, we had the original CESG meeting where this was 
discussed on 16 April, but the whole SM&C WG did not see the TN until 1 
August.  To quote the current MoM:  " Once the TN became available, M. 
Merri distributed it to the SM&C WG and to the CESG requesting comments 
(by 31Aug)."  According to my email records Mario sent this out to the 
whole WG on 1 August 2018, at 12:56 AM PDT, months after the CESG meeting. 
 It was first sent to the CESG on 25 July 2018.
The documented CCSDS procedures are to reach WG consensus on materials 
before they are brought to the CESG.  As stated above, that did not occur 
in this case.  At this point the only possible interpretation of this TN 
is that it was an agency position paper, not a WG supported TN. 
As a part of the documented consensus process it is possible for a WG, or 
an individual, to ask the AD, and then the CESG, for an independent review 
of an issue that is contentious.  See A02.1-Y-4, Annex G on the CCSDS 
Consensus Process.  The whole organization is supposed to operate like 
this.  Since the WG did not see this TN until after the CESG discussion it 
is impossible to argue that this process was followed.
Furthermore, this agency position paper was passed to the CMC without it 
ever having had a technical review and agreement by the CESG.  In our 
normal operations procedures we are to "use a disciplined process to 
define, document, and dispose technical issues" and it is only when there 
is a block to consensus that an issue would get escalated to the next 
higher level in the organization.  That did not occur and CESG discussion 
and consensus was bypassed prior to sending this TN to the CMC.
In this case the actual flow of information avoided or bypassed all of 
these normal steps and we failed to do due diligence and to reach 
consensus at several levels.  This was masked in the MoM from the 
Gaithersburg CESG meeting, but it is evident in these MoM where it is 
clear that the WG never reached consensus in the first place and that CESG 
consensus on escalating this to the CMC was not achieved before that 
occurred.

We did have this discussion during the 5 Sept CESG Telecon, even though it 
was in a more abbreviated form than this, and without the specific CCSDS 
Org & Proc references.  However, reference was made verbally to the Org & 
Proc and to the fact that we had operated outside the norms.  This was 
stated explicitly.  Because of this I request that these facts be recorded 
in the MoM of the 5 Sept telecon and I draw your attention to Annex G and 
the way that the consensus process is supposed to work.  I am not willing 
to accept editorializing that would remove this discussion from the 
record. 

This is, in fact, what happened and we should not confuse the matter.

Almost everything about the way that this TN was handled was out of the 
norm and I think we need to understand why that occurred and avoid it in 
the future.

Best regards, Peter

From: Mario Merri <Mario.Merri at esa.int>
Date: Monday, October 1, 2018 at 8:45 AM
To: Peter Shames <Peter.M.Shames at jpl.nasa.gov>
Cc: CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org>
Subject: Re: [CESG] CESG Telecon 5th September - Minute of Meeting

Hi Peter, 

I think your new text confuses the situation, which is well explained in 
the text above, i.e. 

"CESG concluded that ESA, CNES, and DLR members of the SM&C WG would 
produce a Technical Note containing the analysis of the overlap." This 
sentence is clear and faithfully describes what had happened. On the other 
hand, your proposed change, i.e. 

"The CESG discussed the fact that the SM&C WG had not reached consensus on 
this issue before sending the document to the CESG ... Both of these 
actions are outside the norm of CCSDS procedures." is not clear and seems 
to contradict the sentence above. 

>From the sentence above, it is clear that there was no consensus in the 
SM&C WG, yet the CESG instructed the MOIMS AD to have the TN produced by 
ESA, CNES, and DLR to elaborate on the alleged overlapping. This seems to 
me a prerogative of the CESG and as such within the norm of the CCSDS 
procedures. This is what happened and we should not confuse the matter. 

I propose to delete your proposed additions. 

Regards, 

__Mario 

From:        "Shames, Peter M (312B)" <Peter.M.Shames at jpl.nasa.gov> 
To:        "Margherita.di.Giulio at esa.int" <Margherita.di.Giulio at esa.int>, 
"cesg at mailman.ccsds.org" <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org> 
Date:        01/10/2018 16:58 
Subject:        Re: [CESG] CESG Telecon  5th September -  Minute of 
Meeting 
Sent by:        "CESG" <cesg-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org> 

Dear Margherita,

I see that you have made some additional edits to the Final_D_1 version of 
the MoM for the 5 Sept telecon.  I believe that these are not yet 
accurate, and since these minutes seem to be treated as the Gospel I think 
they need to reflect what actually occurred during the meeting.

Please see attached edits.  We did discuss these quite out of the norm 
processes, but we did not reach a conclusion as to how they were to be 
resolved.  I believe that we are in agreement that we shall continue to 
follow our written and agreed procedures, and that if we wish to change 
them we shall follow the process for doing that instead of just making up 
new ones procedures on the fly.

Thanks, Peter

From: CESG <cesg-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org> on behalf of 
"Margherita.di.Giulio at esa.int" <Margherita.di.Giulio at esa.int>
Date: Monday, October 1, 2018 at 7:05 AM
To: CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org>
Subject: [CESG] CESG Telecon 5th September - Minute of Meeting

Dear All, 
please find attached the Minute of Meeting from the CESG Telecon held on 
5th September. 
This file is also available on CWE at 

https://cwe.ccsds.org/cesg/docs/CWE%20Private/Meetings/2018%20-%20Spring%20Meeting%20Gaithersburgh%2C%20MD%2C%20USA/CESG%20Meeting%2C%2016th%20April%202018/CESG%20Telecon%205th%20September%202018_Notes%20Final_D_1.docx 

Kind regards,
Margherita 

--------------------------------------------------------------
Margherita di Giulio 

European Space Agency ESA/ESOC
Robert-Bosch-Str. 5
D-64293 Darmstadt - Germany
Tel: +49-6151-902779
e-mail: Margherita.di.Giulio at esa.int
This message is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. It may 
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Data Protection Officer (dpo at esa.int).[attachment "CESG Telecon 5th 
September 2018_Notes Final_D_1-SEA.docx" deleted by Mario Merri/esoc/ESA] 

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