[SOIS-WIR] SFCG-40 outputs concerning lunar and martian wireless frequencies

Mon Jan 3 14:45:28 UTC 2022

Dear Jean-Luc -

Nothing has changed, CCSDS-883-0-R-0 review is at the CESG-level, and the SOIS-WIR WG whom has accepted the CESG SEA A.D., SLS-RFM, and SFCG RIDs is simply awaiting a response from the SLS AD.

Thanks.

Kevin
________________________________
From: Issler Jean-Luc <Jean-Luc.Issler at cnes.fr>
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2022 4:43 AM
To: Kevin K Gifford <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>; sois-wir at mailman.ccsds.org <sois-wir at mailman.ccsds.org>
Cc: Shames, Peter M (US 312B) <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>; Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int <Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>; Ignacio.Aguilar.Sanchez at esa.int <Ignacio.Aguilar.Sanchez at esa.int>; Jonathan Wilmot <jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov>; Ray Wagner <raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov>; Moury Gilles <Gilles.Moury at cnes.fr>
Subject: RE: SFCG-40 outputs concerning lunar and martian wireless frequencies

Dear Kevin, dear all,

Please find here attached your message accepting for the Wireless WG the version of 883 with the texts related to sufficient protection of Radio Astronomy in the SZM and critical SFCG bands, text that your message declares as acceptable (I underlined it in red in your attached E-mail). By writing this (and thanks to the later ESA acceptance on the way its rids was processed), you created the consensus on the disposition of the all the RIDS sumited to the agency review of the 883 Bleu (not Orange) book project. Nobody from the Wireless WG, and from the colleagues outside the Wireless WG having provided assistance for the 883 Agency Review, made then an objection to our WG about this consensus.

Attached is also your declaration Kevin stating 883 ready for CESG review, after having a consensus on all the RIDS (submited to 883 Ageny Review) disposition, and reminding that several colleagues provided support for this Agency Review, including SEA AD. After this consensus, you therefore sent the CESG 883 version for approuval, with texts which were acceptable for protection of RA in the SZM and critical SFCG bands. Then, 4 SEA AD PIDS from CESG Review broke this consensus, and the disposition of the 11 CNES RIDS mentioned bellow became not valid anymore from a technical point of view. Any 883 version which would apply these 4 SEA AD would be unacceptable to CNES Technical teams and CNES Science teams, also following up.

As Martin (DLR) and I (CNES) formally wrote to the WG in the attached E-mail, the removed spectrum text (or equivalent as proposed by RFM) need to be reintegrated, from our point of view. As we said, the issue is well at CESG level; I simply reminded what the situation is (moreless unchanged since Martin and I sent our E-mail). I am not commenting your incorect jugements bellow about my intentions. I simply reminded the situation and took into account the directives to public servents of our stakeholder  Ministry our Research (to sufficiently protect directly in indirectly RA in the SZM) which will continue to follow up.   I also really aim as everyone that the 883 Bleu book will be published (with comments received from RFM hopefully accepted by you Kevin), that is publication with better respect of RA in the SZM and protection of non-wireless SFCG bands, as it was the case when you submited the BB project to CESG Kevin. If you would share the RFM comments with Wireless WG, the WG would see (as RFM WG) how reasonable and respectfull from SFCG they are. As explained by mentioning the more than 150 frequency references in 883 (in addition to the removed fundamental spectrum text), I also would be very surprised that a CCSDS written rule would make CESG unable to take into account into 883 the comments received from RFM, which include the SFCG lunar frequency updates that I transmitted to our SOIS-Wireless WG for the information of the group and to try (as already explained) technical discussion due to these new technical elements.

Now, since technical discussions at “sois-wir diffusion list” level on this SFCG RECs updates (etc…) are not possible inside Wireless WG, lets CESG do its work about 883 ! I put SLS DAD in copy in addition to the colleagues external to the Wireless WG that you put in CC, for his information.

See you soon; Very best regards

Jean-Luc

De : Kevin K Gifford <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>
Envoyé : dimanche 2 janvier 2022 18:09
À : Issler Jean-Luc <Jean-Luc.Issler at cnes.fr>; sois-wir at mailman.ccsds.org
Cc : Shames, Peter M (US 312B) <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>; Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int; Ignacio.Aguilar.Sanchez at esa.int; Jonathan Wilmot <jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov>; Ray Wagner <raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov>; Kevin K Gifford <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>
Objet : Re: SFCG-40 outputs concerning lunar and martian wireless frequencies

Dear Jean-Luc -

I believe there is a misunderstanding regarding consensus within CCSDS.

My understanding is that CCSDS consensus is achieved at the CESG level (which is the level of document review that CCSDS-8883 is currently undergoing):

-- CCSDS-883-0-R-0 is a NASA+CSA sponsored activity

-- My understanding is that no consensus is required at the WG level, if this was indeed true then any single WG member could stop a publication from moving forward and essentially thwart the respective agencies that are sponsoring the project.  While a CCSDS member agency, or a CESG AD has this power, my understanding is that a CCSDS WG member does not.

I personally have never declared a WG consensus; I have stated that the SOIS-WG sponsors of CCSDS-883 (NASA, CSA) have worked to disposition all RIDs submitted by CNES and ESA which is what the SOIS-WG is supposed to do.

The SOIS-WG NASA+CSA project sponsors have now accepted all of the RIDs that were formally received from the CESG Review led by Ignacio Sanchez and Enrico Vassallo and have provided the updated document for review by the RID submitters through SLS-RFM.

Jean-Luc: You make the statement that "To be more clear, the main CNES RIDS of the 883 Agency Review whose disposition has been de facto canceled by the broken consensus are the following: CNES-D-V2; CNES-V; CNES-T; CNES-A; CNES-B; CNES-C; CNES-D; CNES-R; CNES-H; CNES-G and CNES-F."

-- The SOIS-WG NASA+CSA project sponsors have accepted all of the RIDs that were formally received from the CESG Review led by Ignacio Sanchez and Enrico Vassallo

-- My expectation is that the SOIS-WG will receive a response from the SLS A.D. (Ignacio) regarding the NASA+CSA incorporation of all RIDs submitted by the SLS-RFM/SFCG review

-- If the CNES RIDs you mention above were part of the SLS-RFM/SFCG review, then these RIDs are now dispositioned/accepted; if they were not part of the RIDs submitted by Ignacio and Enrico then they were not in scope since CCSDS-883 RID resolution is at the CESG level

If any additional discussion is required, I formally request that Ignacio Sanchez (SLS AD), Peter Shames (SEA AD), and Jonathan Wilmot (SOIS AD) are explicitly part of the conversation to ensure no misunderstandings regarding CCSDS processes.

Thanks.

Kevin

________________________________

From: Issler Jean-Luc <Jean-Luc.Issler at cnes.fr<mailto:Jean-Luc.Issler at cnes.fr>>
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2021 3:23 AM
To: Kevin K Gifford <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>; sois-wir at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sois-wir at mailman.ccsds.org> <sois-wir at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sois-wir at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Subject: RE: SFCG-40 outputs concerning lunar and martian wireless frequencies

Dear Kevin, dear all,

My informal E-mail bellow was mainly to inform our Wireless WG about important SFCG updates regarding lunar wireless frequency bands and related limitations. I thought it is interesting for SOIS-Wireless-WG to know these informations that I re-attach here (with bellow extracts of the lunar frequency table related to wireless)

[cid:image003.png at 01D7FE38.B70A53D0]

(Note 4) Frequencies to only be used outside the Shielded Zone of the Moon (SZM).

(Note 6) 5.25-5.57 GHz is allocated to SRS (active) on a primary basis; use of these frequencies for communications in the lunar region is on a non-interference and unprotected basis to SRS (active).

Link Type

Frequency Band

Limitations

4.0

Lunar Surface  Communications

390-405 MHz

See Note 4 to Table 1

410-420 MHz

435-450 MHz

See Note 4 to Table 1

2.400 – 2.480 GHz

Sufficient OOB filtering to protect the 2483.5-2500 MHz LO-to-LS PNT band is necessary

2.5035-2.620 GHz

Sufficient OOB filtering to protect the 2483.5-2500 MHz LO-to-LS PNT band is necessary

5.15-5.835 GHz

25.25-25.5 GHz

Subject to SFCG Rec. 15-2R4

27.225-27.5 GHz

Subject to SFCG Rec. 15-2R4

The new martian and lunar SFCG rec updates are for me interesting to know by Wireless WG not only for reasons related to 883, and more broadly, for some future new bleu or green book(s) to be issued by Wireless WG. That is why this informal E-mail bellow was adressed to SOIS-Wireless WG only, and why I did not sent the 883 version submited to RFM to our WG, since it is not my responsibility to do it.

As Martin and I formally wrote to our WG, we considered the consensus to have been broken, and I simply informally wanted to inform the WG that it is still the case (broken consensus) for me (unless comments received from RFM are integrated in 883). When stating about the broken consensus, Martin and I wrote that it is now at CESG level, I can therefore only agree with your statement bellow that “it is a CESG level” (but as mentioned you Kevin brought 883 also at SLS/RFM level, and I thought that minimum informal technical exchanges of technical facts between RFM and Wireless group members should have been be possible ?). The specificity here is also that several major paragraphs related to frequencies has been removed (in addition to more than 150 frequency references kept in the 883 main text), protection of Radio Astronomy in the Shielded Zone of the Moon and protection of non-wireless SFCG lunar bands (including a very important one having a link with RA in the SZM). Theses removals has been made to the point of breaking the consensus that you declared, and to make uneffective and not real the declared disposition of most of the CNES RIDS (Normaly, PIDS proposed at CESG level by a participant/adviser involved in the Agency Review do not break consensus that much). I therefore just wanted to informally make the status of the consensus (still lost) clear to our WG, also since it is the first time in CCSDS history (due to this boken consensus) that a CCSDS standard could unvolontary make the adopting/implementing engineer to unvolontary threaten Radio Astronomy  (more than if all the crucial informations and requirement were clearly written in 883 as we agreed during the Agency Review), if the RFM suggestions (all reasonable with shorter texts and new compromise proposals, and staying inside the declared consensus) made to answer your request for review to RFM are not taken into account. Such an important stakes  can certainly not  be transformed/reduced/interpretated into “confusing sentence whose content was redoundent”. As already mentioned, our Ministry of Reasearch (one of our stakeholders) expect that french public servants to do their best for protection of Radio Astronomy in the SZM (by the way we are very happy about the succesfull launch of James Webb Telescope :) ! Bravo to NASA, ESA, CSA and all the actors !). To be more clear, the main CNES RIDS of the 883 Agency Review whose disposition has been de facto canceled by the broken consensus are the following: CNES-D-V2; CNES-V; CNES-T; CNES-A; CNES-B; CNES-C; CNES-D; CNES-R; CNES-H; CNES-G and CNES-F.

I am glad that the green book “SOIS lunar communication frequency bands” uploaded is “totally out of scope”. The fact that it (or its last version) was uploaded less than 4 monthes ago, soon after our conclusive Agency Review, and that  October 2021 appeared in its title, confused me.

Most importantly: nice end of year, and Happy New Year to you, your families and your nears.

See you soon; Very best regards

Jean-Luc

De : Kevin K Gifford <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>
Envoyé : lundi 27 décembre 2021 02:27
À : Issler Jean-Luc <Jean-Luc.Issler at cnes.fr<mailto:Jean-Luc.Issler at cnes.fr>>; sois-wir at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sois-wir at mailman.ccsds.org>
Cc : Shames, Peter M (US 312B) <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>>; Kevin K Gifford <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>
Objet : Re: SFCG-40 outputs concerning lunar and martian wireless frequencies

Dear Jean-Luc -

The CCSDS-883 issue is not at the SOIS-WG level, it is at the CESG level.

In response to your comments, please note that all agreed-to RIDs from ESA/CNES from the CESG Review have been excepted, sans one confusing sentence whose content was redundant, so I fail to your concerns.

Regarding the proposed green book updates draft document, that is totally out of scope, it is an old draft document.

Let me repeat: CCSDS-883 processing is at the CESG level and the SOIS-WIR WG will await the outcome of this process.

Thanks.

Kevin

________________________________

From: SOIS-WIR <sois-wir-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sois-wir-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org>> on behalf of Issler Jean-Luc <Jean-Luc.Issler at cnes.fr<mailto:Jean-Luc.Issler at cnes.fr>>
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2021 2:23 AM
To: sois-wir at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sois-wir at mailman.ccsds.org> <sois-wir at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sois-wir at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Subject: [SOIS-WIR] SFCG-40 outputs concerning lunar and martian wireless frequencies

Dear Kevin, dear all,

I hope you have had a nice Christmas

As a member of CCSDS SOIS/Wireless and SLS/RFM group, I have seen the 883 version that you submited to RFM for comments. This version do not present significant progress to re-find the consensus that you declared Kevin, and which was later broken. I made new proposals (included in the combined version of 883 containing the comments received from RFM WG before the deadline that you have defined Kevin) to find new compromises in the 883 text, while keeping in mind the key issues allowing to re-create the declared consensus.

Please also find here attached the updated SFCG recommandations (for the ones who have not them aready) to respect vis a vis lunar and martian communication/PNT frequencies. New lunar and martian wireless bands have been introduced, with some necessary restrictions, as well as recommendations to protect the 2483-2500 MHz PNT orbit to surface lunar band. The need of an upper guard band that we have discussed before reaching our consensus including that need at WG Level (now broken by SEA/AD PIDS and the resulting version submited to RFM), between 2.5000 and 2.5035 GHz, has been discussed, confirmed and included in the updated SFCG RECs . The 3GPP 4G 2.5 GHZ lunar and martian bands are therefore 2503.5-2620.0 MHz. SFCG confirmed also the Wifi 2.4 GHz lunar and martian bands: 2400.0-2480.0 MHz, that is not any channel, even partly spectraly speaking, above 2480.0 MHz. CNES hopes that the published 883 version will be clear in fully respecting these SFCG bands and in fully protecting the 2483.5-2500 MHz SFCG band. We know that there is not any CCSDS written rules, or even clear usage, precluding 883 to be unambiguous on this. Moreover, without this few frequency references allowing to re-create the consensus, the 883 version submited to RFM contains more than 150 frequency references in MHz or GHz ! SFCG also did not introduced new wireless bands which could threaten Radio Astronomy in the Shielded Zone of the Moon.

CNES was among the few agencies having been in favour of introduction of both 2.5 GHz and 5 GHz wireless bands in these updated SFCG recommendations !     SFCG is a continuous process, and CNES hopes that a compromise could be find for a future update to introduce a well studied portion of the 60 GHz wireless band acceptable for both Wireless and Radio Astronomy communities.

It is also very important that 883 re-become acceptable vis a vis the Protection of Radio Astronomy in the Shielded Zone of the Moon, as it was when you declared consensus and the related 883 agency review closure, Kevin; may be could you provide to our Wireless WG a status on 883 ?

I also had a look to the following Draft Recommendation for Space Data System Standards which is available in CWE (uploaded end of august): ”SOIS-Lunar Surface Communications Recommended Frequency Bands; Engineering technical recommendation; CCSDS 883.0-G-4; Proposed Green Book Updates. October 2021”. This document is also not compatible with the consensus which has been declared (and it is better than SFCG com, PNT and radar communities do not see the current version of this document !). I will have many comments, I will provide them asap, but I would recommend that we put on hold this document by waiting publication of 883, since the content of 883 is not approved if I am correct, notably due to the broken consensus. Once 883 will be hopefully published, we would have a stable reference to built upon to continue drafting this document.

Most importantly: nice end of year, and Happy New Year to you, your families and your nears.

Very best regards

Jean-Luc
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