[Sls-rfm] TR: Fw: SOIS-WIR Wireless Proximity Network Communications draft Blue Book - addendum

Thu Nov 19 14:14:38 UTC 2020

Dear Enrico, dear all,

I agree with Wai’s comments, which apply to bleu books, but also to some extend to orange books.  A green book might possibly be a solution. Moreover, bleu (orange) books shall (should) comply as much as possible with both ITU and SFCG recommendations (for the lunar wireless communications*, in this case).

Very best regards

Jean-Luc

*like ITU-R RA.479-5; ITU-R RA.314-10; SFCG-REC 32-2R2 or future SFCG-REC 32-2R3

De : SLS-RFM <sls-rfm-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org>> De la part de Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>
Envoyé : mercredi 18 novembre 2020 16:18
À : sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org>
Objet : Re: [Sls-rfm] Fw: SOIS-WIR Wireless Proximity Network Communications draft Blue Book - addendum

As per SLS AD suggestion, please also consider question 3

3) You agree that the book should be a green book

Regards, Enrico

From:        Enrico Vassallo/esoc/ESA
To:        sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org>
Date:        18/11/20 15:19
Subject:        Re: Fw: SOIS-WIR Wireless Proximity Network Communications draft Blue Book

________________________________

Dear All,

I have received the attached comments by Wai. I assume that the comments raised by Dennis, Jean-Luc and me in cooperation with SFCG Lunar Martian Spectrum Group chairperson are addressed so the only remaining items are those identified by Wai.

I would like to know if:

1) You endorse Wai's comments
2) You agree that the book should be an orange book

Please reply to these two questions by Nov 22.

Note that in their response, SOIS-WIR are of the opinion that any remaining comments shall be addressed during agency review. However, given the time it takes to start such process, I think we can still interact.
The problem is that SOIS and SOIS-WIR are not going to like these suggestions. Additionally, SOIS AD is from NASA (GSFC) and SOIS-WIR chairman is from University of Colorado while I am ESA as well as the SLS AD.
If the WG agrees with items 1 and 2, I would suggest SOIS AD to get in touch with Wai as the RFM WG liaison being both at GSFC.

Looking forward to your views,

Enrico

----- Forwarded by Enrico Vassallo/esoc/ESA on 18/11/20 15:03 -----

From:        "Fong, Wai H. (GSFC-5670)" <wai.h.fong at nasa.gov<mailto:wai.h.fong at nasa.gov>>
To:        "Enrico Vassallo" <Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>>
Cc:        "Lee, Wing-tsz (GSFC-5670)" <wing-tsz.lee-1 at nasa.gov<mailto:wing-tsz.lee-1 at nasa.gov>>, "Rodriguez, Shannon (GSFC-5670)" <shannon.rodriguez-1 at nasa.gov<mailto:shannon.rodriguez-1 at nasa.gov>>, "Sank, Victor J. (GSFC-567.0)[SCIENCE SYSTEMS AND APPLICATIONS INC]" <victor.j.sank at nasa.gov<mailto:victor.j.sank at nasa.gov>>
Date:        18/11/20 14:39
Subject:        CCSDS 883-0-BBv1-0 response

________________________________

Enrico,

My focus are the statements in response to my comments to CCSDS 883.0-B-0 starting in page 2-1 in the Executive Summary section 2-1.

Comments:

1.        Overall observation to this new passage in the executive summary:  Most of the items listed are general background material and not specific to the application of the protocol to a planetary or lunar surface.  It’s odd that this information is contained in the executive summary section which is supposed to be summary of the entire document.  We will suggest below items that should put in a background or introductory section.
2.        Page 2-2, item 1):  This point is more background information and should be in an introduction.
3.        Page 2-2, item 2):  “Channel models depend on environment and deployment architecture (see [36], [D23], [D24], [D25]).” Again while this statement is true, it is very general and more background information that should be in an introduction section, not a summary.
4.        Page 2-2, item 2):  “LTE frame structure and timing inter-symbol interference (ISI) protection scales to multipath environments compatible with ~100 km link distances in mountainous terrains on Earth and will easily address most reasonable planetary, lunar, and other complex surface topography deployments.”  Where is the supporting documentation to this assertion?
5.        Page 2-2, item 2):  “Delay spread significantly below 1/15 ms has no impact on LTE symbol decoding. This supports a path-spread of 10 km for received multipath components. Channel models are studied in depth in IEEE, 3GPP, and ITU processes, easily supporting the relatively small networks envisioned for spaceflight networks.” Delay spread is a function of the channel, and RF frequency.  If you have a Lunar channel with reflection coefficients, carrier frequencies and Doppler that are different from the terrestrial coefficients, then that impacts the delay and Doppler spread which could make the total time spread be much longer and this would impact the architecture of the network.  A detailed study of the Lunar or planetary surface is required to make a detailed multipath model in order to make a good protocol.  We don’t see a reference or detailed study of the Lunar surface.  The closest reference is [D25], however this article deals with intra-crater communications which is not likely to be a location for a lunar base.
6.        Page 2-2, item 2):  “For additional technical background see Wireless Network Communications Overview for Space Mission Operations (reference [D1]).”  This reference gives some fundamental description of multipath but it doesn’t apply the information to a proposed Lunar or planetary network. Can you provide a reference that actually applies the theory to a planetary application?
7.        Page 2-2, item 3):  This point is more background or introduction information and should not be in a summary section.
8.        Page 2-3, item 4):  This point is more background or introduction information and should not be in a summary section.
9.        Page 2-3, item 5):  This item is also background or introductory information.

My general comment is that this new section starting at page 2-1 does not address my original three comments which I repeat for reference:

1.        Although document has a lot of information of the proposed standards, we don’t see requirements that specific to Lunar environment, i.e. recommendation for locating base stations and what is the density of base stations for a required communications utilization.

2.        The channel model is not referenced or specified in the document.  We would like to see a characterization of the RF environment so that the protocols are justified.  The protocols are designed for an Earth like environment so some justification of why this will work on the Lunar surface in necessary.

a.        How does the multipath effects of the lunar surface affect the throughput of the links?

b.        Are there outages created by crater or surface shadowing?

c.        Is the multipath frequency selective or flat?  How does this affect the service quality?

3.        If there are supporting documents to the protocols for Lunar applications, please list.  The reference document list does not have this. Only terrestrial applications are specified for 3GPP.

As a suggestion, if the SOIS-WIR wishes to publish this document, I would suggest an Orange Book or as others have suggested a Green Book.  A Blue Book has to have strong simulation and/or analytical results to support a CCSDS protocol. And results must be confirmed by two agencies.  I don’t believe this standard has been met given the comments above and a general lack of solid documented experimental evidence.

Wai Fong, Ph.D.

Communications Engineer

Flight Microwave and Telecommunications Systems Branch

NASA Goddard Space Flight Center

Code 567

Greenbelt, MD  20771

From:        Enrico Vassallo/esoc/ESA
To:        sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org>
Date:        16/11/20 10:34
Subject:        Re: Fw: SOIS-WIR Wireless Proximity Network Communications draft Blue Book

________________________________

Dear All,

I have not received any feedback from you. Meanwhile, I read the changes myself and therefore have a pretty good understanding of them.

If I do not receive any negative feedback by Nov 18 close of business, I would assume that the RFM WG can live with the document as proposed now and will inform SOIS-WIR accordingly. Of course, if you are party to the Agency Review process also for SOIS area, you may submit your own comments during such phase (not started yet.)

Regards, Enrico

From:        Enrico Vassallo/esoc/ESA
To:        sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org>
Date:        11/11/20 11:02
Subject:        Fw: SOIS-WIR Wireless Proximity Network Communications draft Blue Book

________________________________

Dear All,

I assume you have not received this email since Kevin is not a member of the RFM WG. Having checked with the SLS AD, it is confirmed that the email was blocked by CCSDS.

Please have a look at the response and let me know if you are happy with it (especially, Dennis, Jean-Luc and Wai who provided specific comments).

Note that the SOIS-WIR chair proposes to address additional comments by RFM WG during the agency review phase.

Best Regards, Enrico

----- Forwarded by Enrico Vassallo/esoc/ESA on 11/11/20 10:57 -----

From:        "Kevin K Gifford" <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>
To:        "Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>" <Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>>, "sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org>" <sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Cc:        "Jonathan Wilmot" <jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov<mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov>>, "Ray Wagner" <raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov<mailto:raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov>>, "Lansdowne, Chatwin (JSC-EV811)" <chatwin.lansdowne-1 at nasa.gov<mailto:chatwin.lansdowne-1 at nasa.gov>>, "Cascarano, Brian (ASC/CSA)" <brian.cascarano at canada.ca<mailto:brian.cascarano at canada.ca>>, "Stephen Braham" <stephen_braham at sfu.ca<mailto:stephen_braham at sfu.ca>>, "Siddhartha Subray" <Siddhartha.Subray at Colorado.EDU<mailto:Siddhartha.Subray at Colorado.EDU>>, "Kevin K Gifford" <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>
Date:        09/11/20 23:11
Subject:        Re: SOIS-WIR Wireless Proximity Network Communications draft Blue Book

________________________________

Dear SLS-RFM Working Group -

Sincere thanks to the SLS-RFM WG for review of the draft CCSDS 883-0-B-0 Wireless Proximity Network Communications Blue Book.

The SOIS-WIR WG has reviewed all the SLS-RFM comments and have composed dispositions for all comments.

Please find attached two documents:

-- A table-based response to all SLS-RFM comments (v0.10.06.00 SLS-RFM RID Table and Responses.docx)

-- The draft BB with the SOIS-WIR proposed updates that address all comments from SLS-RFM (v0.10.16.16.09 CCSDS 883-0-BBv1-0 Wireless Proximity Network Communications.docx)

The attached Blue Book has Track Changes ON, and the only changes in the document are the updates from the SOIS-WIR WG to address/disposition the SLS-RFM WG Review Items.  You can simply advance to the changes in the Blue Book with the 'Next Change' button where Reviewing.

The primary updates are on page 2-1 and page 2-2, then in Section 2.4.2 starting on page 2-10 and page 2-11 (this includes the updated Table 2-3).

Thank you again for the thoughtful review and suggestions.  If there are any additional inputs from your Working Group, the SOIS-WIR WG will address/disposition during the nominal Agency Review Cycle.

Please let me know if any questions or concerns.

Thanks again SLS-RFM!

Kevin

________________________________

From: Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int> <Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>>
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 7:51 AM
To: Kevin K Gifford <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>
Cc: Jonathan Wilmot <jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov<mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov>>; Ray Wagner <raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov<mailto:raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov>>; sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org> <sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Subject: SOIS-WIR Wireless Proximity Network Communications draft Blue Book

Dear Kevin,

RFM WG has concluded discussions on the SOIS-WIR proxy draft BB. The agreed RFM WG position for SOIS-WIR is attached and is identical to the draft version submitted by Dennis for advance info.

The RFM WG is looking forward to receiving SOIS-WIR replies and, if requested by your group, is ready to be actively involved in solving some of he identified problems.

Best Regards, Enrico

From:        "Lee, Dennis K (US 332G)" <dennis.k.lee at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:dennis.k.lee at jpl.nasa.gov>>
To:        "Kevin K Gifford" <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>, "Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>" <Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>>
Cc:        "Jonathan Wilmot" <jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov<mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov>>, "Ray Wagner" <raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov<mailto:raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov>>
Date:        26/10/20 15:20
Subject:        RE: RFM Working Group Agenda

________________________________

[attachment "Response to SOIS-WIR on CCSDS 883.0-BBv1_draft3.docx" deleted by Enrico Vassallo/esoc/ESA]

Kevin,

Attached is a compilation of the review feedback received from the RFM working group on the draft SOIS-WIR Wireless Proximity Network Communication Blue Book.  They are mainly focused on revisions to the spectrum utilization (section 2.4.2), Table 2-2, and information regarding lunar base station density and lunar surface channel models.  Please let us know if you have any questions about the RFM feedback.

Thanks,

Dennis

From: Kevin K Gifford <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 9:00 AM
To: Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>; Lee, Dennis K (US 332G) <dennis.k.lee at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:dennis.k.lee at jpl.nasa.gov>>
Cc: Jonathan Wilmot <jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov<mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov>>; Ray Wagner <raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov<mailto:raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov>>; sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org>; Kevin K Gifford <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: RFM Working Group Agenda

Hi SLS-RFM, Dennis, Enrico -

@Dennis: Can you please forward the SLS-RFM comments pertaining to the SOIS-WIR Wireless Proximity Network Communications draft Blue Book?  The SOIS-WIR WG would like to review the SLS-RFM comments.

Sincere thanks for your review efforts and valued inputs.

Kevin

________________________________

From: Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int> <Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 8:18 AM
To: Kevin K Gifford <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>
Cc: Jonathan Wilmot <jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov<mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov>>; Ray Wagner <raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov<mailto:raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov>>; sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org> <sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Subject: RFM Working Group Agenda

Hi Kevin,

we are fine and hope the same is true for you.

The RFM WG works with papers submitted two weeks in advance of the meeting like other SLS groups. In light of the remote meeting for Fall 2020, we did documents review by correspondence. The agenda does not entail a physical mtg or videoconf, but just that we work on these issues.

The WG did review your input and Dennis was about to contact you with our findings/recommendations.

So please refrain from sending us another version. Have first a look at our recommendations and let us know what you think and what you could do about them. We can still iterate our recommendations with your group, though. If you are willing to take on board our requests, we can give you a few weeks to carry it out.

Regards, Enrico

From:        "Kevin K Gifford" <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>
To:        "Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>" <Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>>, "Blackwood, Michael D. via CESG-All" <cesg-all at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:cesg-all at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Cc:        "Ray Wagner" <raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov<mailto:raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov>>, "Jonathan Wilmot" <jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov<mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov>>, "Kevin K Gifford" <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>
Date:        20/10/20 16:05
Subject:        Re: [Cesg-all] RFM Working Group Agenda

________________________________

Hi Enrico -

I hope all is well for you and that you and your family are healthy!

I'll send the SOIS-WIR draft Blue Book to you and the SLS-RFM group later this week so that you will have the latest version of the document that will go through Secretariat publication processing.

Please let me know if any questions or concerns.

Thanks.

Kevin

________________________________

From: CESG-All <cesg-all-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:cesg-all-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org>> on behalf of Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int> <Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 7:34 AM
To: Blackwood, Michael D. via CESG-All <cesg-all at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:cesg-all at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Subject: [Cesg-all] RFM Working Group Agenda

Dear Michael,

the agenda follows.

Best Regards, Enrico

1. Modulations for high rate uplinks with ranging at 22 GHz
2. Disposition RIDs concerning CCSDS 401.0-RP-30.1
3. Update to Draft 23/27 GHz TTFR Recommendation
4. Update to Draft Flexible Turnaround Ratio Recommendation
5. Consideration of HOMs for non-EESS missions
6. Review of Draft Wireless Proximity Network Blue Book (SOIS-WIR)
7. Impact of VCM to EESS HOMs recommendations
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