[Sls-rfm] [EXTERNAL] Re: Fw: SOIS-WIR Wireless Proximity Network Communications draft Blue Book - extension of deadline

Fri Dec 18 07:59:35 UTC 2020

Dear Enrico & RFM WG Members,

The SOIS-WIR group has provided additional material addressing the LTE capability to deal with the lunar/martian surface multipath channel, which is attached for the RFM WG’s consideration.   I apologize for the delay, but from the NASA perspective we will need more time to fully evaluate the information provided by SOIS-WIR and cannot in principle support the proposed RFM text until that process has been completed.  In any event, if the SOIS AD has already moved for agency review then it appears our response has been superseded by events.

Happy Holidays to all!

Best Regards,
Dennis

From: SLS-RFM <sls-rfm-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org> On Behalf Of Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2020 12:06 AM
To: Issler Jean-Luc <Jean-Luc.Issler at cnes.fr>; sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org
Cc: gilles.moury at cnes.fr
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Sls-rfm] Fw: SOIS-WIR Wireless Proximity Network Communications draft Blue Book - extension of deadline

Dear Jean-Luc, Dear RFM WG Members,

I was asked by NASA to delay the response to this item until Monday next week due to the Thanksgiving holiday in the US. Given that NASA brought up the issue along with CNES, I had no alternative than accepting this request.

Therefore, you have more time to respond.

In any case, it has come to my attention that the SOIS Area Director issued the resolution to start agency review of this blue book. Therefore, our response may be superseded by events.

All the best to you and Happy Thanksgiving to our NASA colleagues.

Enrico

From:        "Issler Jean-Luc" <Jean-Luc.Issler at cnes.fr<mailto:Jean-Luc.Issler at cnes.fr>>
To:        "Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>" <Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>>, "sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org>" <sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Date:        24/11/20 19:43
Subject:        RE: [Sls-rfm] Fw: SOIS-WIR Wireless Proximity Network Communications draft Blue Book
________________________________

Dear All,

CNES agrees with the proposed update

Very best regards

Jean-Luc

De : SLS-RFM <sls-rfm-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org>> De la part de Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>
Envoyé : lundi 23 novembre 2020 16:37
À : sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org>
Objet : [Sls-rfm] Fw: SOIS-WIR Wireless Proximity Network Communications draft Blue Book

Dear All,

this is my proposed text to be sent to SOIS-WIR.

Basically, it is the agreed WG text apart from the final text included between >>> and in red color for those that get the colors in my email.

I decided to remove the book color change from blue to green or orange since, as remarked by the SLS AD, our justification:

If the SOIS-WIR wishes to publish this document, the RFM WG would suggest a Green Book or, alternatively an Orange Book.  A Blue Book has to have strong simulation and/or analytical results to support a CCSDS protocol. And results must be confirmed by two agencies.  The RFM WG does not believe this standard has been met given the comments above and a general lack of solid documented experimental evidence.

could be countered by the pending prototypes.

The reason for this major change comes from reading the CCSDS rules and the SOIS-WIR project. In principle the BB is not published until the relevant indendent prototypes are available so we may be able to make our point without creating too much confrontation (agency reviews are normally done before the protoypes).

Have a look at it and let me have your comments by Nov 25 (it's just 5 lines.)

Regards, Enrico

----- Forwarded by Enrico Vassallo/esoc/ESA on 23/11/20 16:13 -----

From:        Enrico Vassallo/esoc/ESA
To:        "Kevin K Gifford" <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>
Cc:        "Cascarano, Brian (ASC/CSA)" <brian.cascarano at canada.ca<mailto:brian.cascarano at canada.ca>>, "Lansdowne, Chatwin (JSC-EV811)" <chatwin.lansdowne-1 at nasa.gov<mailto:chatwin.lansdowne-1 at nasa.gov>>, "Jonathan Wilmot" <jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov<mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov>>, "Ray Wagner" <raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov<mailto:raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov>>, "Siddhartha Subray" <Siddhartha.Subray at Colorado.EDU<mailto:Siddhartha.Subray at Colorado.EDU>>, "sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org>" <sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org>>, "Stephen Braham" <stephen_braham at sfu.ca<mailto:stephen_braham at sfu.ca>>
Date:        23/11/20 10:01
Subject:        Re: SOIS-WIR Wireless Proximity Network Communications draft Blue Book

________________________________

Dear Kevin,

thanks for the provided material that the RFM WG has studied in detail in relations to the comments and requests for changes provided on the previous version of the book by the RFM WG.

I am pleased to report that th RFM WG finds the disposition of the comments about frequency bands in relation to SFCG Lunar Martian recommendations in line with RFM WG requests.

Concerning the protocols per say, the RFM WG would like to offer instead the following comments:

1.        Overall observation to this new passage in the executive summary:  Most of the items listed are general background material and not specific to the application of the protocol to a planetary or lunar surface.  It’s odd that this information is contained in the executive summary section which is supposed to be summary of the entire document.  We will suggest below items that should be put in a background or introductory section.
2.        Page 2-2, item 1):  This point is more background information and should be in an introduction.
3.        Page 2-2, item 2):  “Channel models depend on environment and deployment architecture (see [36], [D23], [D24], [D25]).” Again while this statement is true, it is very general and more background information that should be in an introduction section, not a summary.
4.        Page 2-2, item 2):  “LTE frame structure and timing inter-symbol interference (ISI) protection scales to multipath environments compatible with ~100 km link distances in mountainous terrains on Earth and will easily address most reasonable planetary, lunar, and other complex surface topography deployments.”  Where is the supporting documentation to this assertion?
5.        Page 2-2, item 2):  “Delay spread significantly below 1/15 ms has no impact on LTE symbol decoding. This supports a path-spread of 10 km for received multipath components. Channel models are studied in depth in IEEE, 3GPP, and ITU processes, easily supporting the relatively small networks envisioned for spaceflight networks.” Delay spread is a function of the channel, and RF frequency.  If you have a Lunar channel with reflection coefficients, carrier frequencies and Doppler that are different from the terrestrial coefficients, then that impacts the delay and Doppler spread which could make the total time spread be much longer and this would impact the architecture of the network.  A detailed study of the Lunar or planetary surface is required to make a detailed multipath model in order to make a good protocol.  We don’t see a reference or detailed study of the Lunar surface.  The closest reference is [D25], however this article deals with intra-crater communications which is not likely to be a location for a lunar base.
6.        Page 2-2, item 2):  “For additional technical background see Wireless Network Communications Overview for Space Mission Operations (reference [D1]).”  This reference gives some fundamental description of multipath but it doesn’t apply the information to a proposed Lunar or planetary network. Can the WG provide a reference that actually applies the theory to a planetary application?
7.        Page 2-2, item 3):  This point is more background or introduction information and should not be in a summary section.
8.        Page 2-3, item 4):  This point is more background or introduction information and should not be in a summary section.
9.        Page 2-3, item 5):  This item is also background or introductory information.

The RFM WG general comment is that this new section starting at page 2-1 does not address the original three comments which are repeated below for reference:

1.        Although document has a lot of information of the proposed standards, we don’t see requirements that are specific to Lunar environment, i.e. recommendation for locating base stations and what is the density of base stations for a required communications utilization.
2.        The channel model is not referenced or specified in the document.  We would like to see a characterization of the RF environment so that the protocols are justified.  The protocols are designed for an Earth like environment so some justification of why this will work on the Lunar surface in necessary.
a.        How does the multipath effects of the lunar surface affect the throughput of the links?
b.        Are there outages created by crater or surface shadowing?
c.        Is the multipath frequency selective or flat?  How does this affect the service quality?
3.        If there are supporting documents to the protocols for Lunar applications, please list.  The reference document list does not have this. Only terrestrial applications are specified for 3GPP.

>>>
The RFM WG has no evidence that the material included in the book is sufficient and appropriate for a recommended standard (blue book) until the activities with the two independent prototpyes (one by NASA/Nokia and one by CSA/Star Solutions as per https://cwe.ccsds.org/fm/Lists/Projects/DispFormDraft.aspx?ID=703&Source=http://cwe.ccsds.org/fm/Lists/Projects/AllOpenChartersWithDraftProjects.aspx<https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/cwe.ccsds.org/fm/Lists/Projects/DispFormDraft.aspx?ID=703&Source=http:**Acwe.ccsds.org*fm*Lists*Projects*AllOpenChartersWithDraftProjects.aspx__;Ly8vLy8v!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!aPjS5Cvjlc_ibYnWv826RKoxaTLg-IQ8w2hXHpmKIpN243mLYTKi9Tg0KrI5lpSbPqLrpxk$>) are completed and the results are assessed by the RFM WG.
As such, noting that the BB cannot be published anyway before the two protypes have been demonstrated, the RFM WG recommends to SOIS-WIR not to proceed with the Agency Review of this book until the two prototypes are available to close all the issues highlighted by the RFM WG, assuming that the test plan for the prototypes will encompass all raised problems.
>>>
As said before, the RFM WG would be ready to help your group advance in this very interesting area. Joint working group meetings could be foreseen after addition of the support task in the RFM charter.
Looking forward to hearing from you,
Enrico
(as RFM WG chairperson)

From:        "Kevin K Gifford" <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>
To:        "Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>" <Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>>, "sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org>" <sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Cc:        "Jonathan Wilmot" <jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov<mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov>>, "Ray Wagner" <raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov<mailto:raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov>>, "Lansdowne, Chatwin (JSC-EV811)" <chatwin.lansdowne-1 at nasa.gov<mailto:chatwin.lansdowne-1 at nasa.gov>>, "Cascarano, Brian (ASC/CSA)" <brian.cascarano at canada.ca<mailto:brian.cascarano at canada.ca>>, "Stephen Braham" <stephen_braham at sfu.ca<mailto:stephen_braham at sfu.ca>>, "Siddhartha Subray" <Siddhartha.Subray at Colorado.EDU<mailto:Siddhartha.Subray at Colorado.EDU>>, "Kevin K Gifford" <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>
Date:        09/11/20 23:11
Subject:        Re: SOIS-WIR Wireless Proximity Network Communications draft Blue Book

________________________________

Dear SLS-RFM Working Group -

Sincere thanks to the SLS-RFM WG for review of the draft CCSDS 883-0-B-0 Wireless Proximity Network Communications Blue Book.

The SOIS-WIR WG has reviewed all the SLS-RFM comments and have composed dispositions for all comments.

Please find attached two documents:

-- A table-based response to all SLS-RFM comments (v0.10.06.00 SLS-RFM RID Table and Responses.docx)

-- The draft BB with the SOIS-WIR proposed updates that address all comments from SLS-RFM (v0.10.16.16.09 CCSDS 883-0-BBv1-0 Wireless Proximity Network Communications.docx)

The attached Blue Book has Track Changes ON, and the only changes in the document are the updates from the SOIS-WIR WG to address/disposition the SLS-RFM WG Review Items.  You can simply advance to the changes in the Blue Book with the 'Next Change' button where Reviewing.

The primary updates are on page 2-1 and page 2-2, then in Section 2.4.2 starting on page 2-10 and page 2-11 (this includes the updated Table 2-3).

Thank you again for the thoughtful review and suggestions.  If there are any additional inputs from your Working Group, the SOIS-WIR WG will address/disposition during the nominal Agency Review Cycle.

Please let me know if any questions or concerns.

Thanks again SLS-RFM!

Kevin

________________________________

From: Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int> <Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>>
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 7:51 AM
To: Kevin K Gifford <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>
Cc: Jonathan Wilmot <jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov<mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov>>; Ray Wagner <raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov<mailto:raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov>>; sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org> <sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Subject: SOIS-WIR Wireless Proximity Network Communications draft Blue Book

Dear Kevin,

RFM WG has concluded discussions on the SOIS-WIR proxy draft BB. The agreed RFM WG position for SOIS-WIR is attached and is identical to the draft version submitted by Dennis for advance info.

The RFM WG is looking forward to receiving SOIS-WIR replies and, if requested by your group, is ready to be actively involved in solving some of he identified problems.

Best Regards, Enrico

From:        "Lee, Dennis K (US 332G)" <dennis.k.lee at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:dennis.k.lee at jpl.nasa.gov>>
To:        "Kevin K Gifford" <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>, "Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>" <Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>>
Cc:        "Jonathan Wilmot" <jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov<mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov>>, "Ray Wagner" <raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov<mailto:raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov>>
Date:        26/10/20 15:20
Subject:        RE: RFM Working Group Agenda

________________________________

[attachment "Response to SOIS-WIR on CCSDS 883.0-BBv1_draft3.docx" deleted by Enrico Vassallo/esoc/ESA]

Kevin,

Attached is a compilation of the review feedback received from the RFM working group on the draft SOIS-WIR Wireless Proximity Network Communication Blue Book.  They are mainly focused on revisions to the spectrum utilization (section 2.4.2), Table 2-2, and information regarding lunar base station density and lunar surface channel models.  Please let us know if you have any questions about the RFM feedback.

Thanks,

Dennis

From: Kevin K Gifford <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 9:00 AM
To: Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>; Lee, Dennis K (US 332G) <dennis.k.lee at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:dennis.k.lee at jpl.nasa.gov>>
Cc: Jonathan Wilmot <jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov<mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov>>; Ray Wagner <raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov<mailto:raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov>>; sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org>; Kevin K Gifford <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: RFM Working Group Agenda

Hi SLS-RFM, Dennis, Enrico -

@Dennis: Can you please forward the SLS-RFM comments pertaining to the SOIS-WIR Wireless Proximity Network Communications draft Blue Book?  The SOIS-WIR WG would like to review the SLS-RFM comments.

Sincere thanks for your review efforts and valued inputs.

Kevin

________________________________

From: Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int> <Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 8:18 AM
To: Kevin K Gifford <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>
Cc: Jonathan Wilmot <jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov<mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov>>; Ray Wagner <raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov<mailto:raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov>>; sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org> <sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sls-rfm at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Subject: RFM Working Group Agenda

Hi Kevin,

we are fine and hope the same is true for you.

The RFM WG works with papers submitted two weeks in advance of the meeting like other SLS groups. In light of the remote meeting for Fall 2020, we did documents review by correspondence. The agenda does not entail a physical mtg or videoconf, but just that we work on these issues.

The WG did review your input and Dennis was about to contact you with our findings/recommendations.

So please refrain from sending us another version. Have first a look at our recommendations and let us know what you think and what you could do about them. We can still iterate our recommendations with your group, though. If you are willing to take on board our requests, we can give you a few weeks to carry it out.

Regards, Enrico

From:        "Kevin K Gifford" <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>
To:        "Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>" <Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>>, "Blackwood, Michael D. via CESG-All" <cesg-all at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:cesg-all at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Cc:        "Ray Wagner" <raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov<mailto:raymond.s.wagner at nasa.gov>>, "Jonathan Wilmot" <jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov<mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot at nasa.gov>>, "Kevin K Gifford" <kevin.gifford at colorado.edu<mailto:kevin.gifford at colorado.edu>>
Date:        20/10/20 16:05
Subject:        Re: [Cesg-all] RFM Working Group Agenda

________________________________

Hi Enrico -

I hope all is well for you and that you and your family are healthy!

I'll send the SOIS-WIR draft Blue Book to you and the SLS-RFM group later this week so that you will have the latest version of the document that will go through Secretariat publication processing.

Please let me know if any questions or concerns.

Thanks.

Kevin

________________________________

From: CESG-All <cesg-all-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:cesg-all-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org>> on behalf of Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int> <Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int<mailto:Enrico.Vassallo at esa.int>>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 7:34 AM
To: Blackwood, Michael D. via CESG-All <cesg-all at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:cesg-all at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Subject: [Cesg-all] RFM Working Group Agenda

Dear Michael,

the agenda follows.

Best Regards, Enrico

1. Modulations for high rate uplinks with ranging at 22 GHz
2. Disposition RIDs concerning CCSDS 401.0-RP-30.1
3. Update to Draft 23/27 GHz TTFR Recommendation
4. Update to Draft Flexible Turnaround Ratio Recommendation
5. Consideration of HOMs for non-EESS missions
6. Review of Draft Wireless Proximity Network Blue Book (SOIS-WIR)
7. Impact of VCM to EESS HOMs recommendations

[attachment "v0.10.16.16.09 CCSDS 883-0-BBv1-0 Wireless Proximity Network Communications.docx" deleted by Enrico Vassallo/esoc/ESA]

[attachment "v0.10.06.00 SLS-RFM RID Table and Responses.docx" deleted by Enrico Vassallo/esoc/ESA]

This message is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. It may contain proprietary information and/or

protected content. Any unauthorised disclosure, use, retention or dissemination is prohibited. If you have received

this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately. ESA applies appropriate organisational measures to protect

personal data, in case of data privacy queries, please contact the ESA Data Protection Officer (dpo at esa.int<mailto:dpo at esa.int>).

This message is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. It may contain proprietary information and/or

protected content. Any unauthorised disclosure, use, retention or dissemination is prohibited. If you have received

this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately. ESA applies appropriate organisational measures to protect

personal data, in case of data privacy queries, please contact the ESA Data Protection Officer (dpo at esa.int<mailto:dpo at esa.int>).
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.ccsds.org/pipermail/sls-rfm/attachments/20201218/e710f9a7/attachment-0001.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 2020-12-08 SOIS-WIR Lunar Channel Model.pptx
Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.presentationml.presentation
Size: 4777518 bytes
Desc: 2020-12-08 SOIS-WIR Lunar Channel Model.pptx
URL: <http://mailman.ccsds.org/pipermail/sls-rfm/attachments/20201218/e710f9a7/attachment-0001.pptx>