[Sis-dtn] [EXTERNAL] [BULK] Re: DTN Reference Scenarios

Wed Jun 12 20:32:32 UTC 2024

Hi Felix –

I am very happy to see these charts – I have been asking the DTN Program to agree on some standard scenarios for a number of years and it just hasn’t gotten done – so these scenarios will be a great baseline!

I am getting data on the projected links from the Mars program office. On the trunk lines there will be different uplink and downlink rates, and the rates are dependent on A. distance to Mars, and B. elevation of the DSN antennas in the case of RF links. Also links P-* use adaptive data rate control, and are on UHF at present – there are S-band radios in development for proximity links at the moon, but I’m not 100% sure if S-band is planned for rovers/landers at Mars etc.. Will find out!.

Finally, they are also planning crosslinks between orbiters.  I will provide more data on that when I find out.

A comment about 3GPP/WIFI on the surface of the moon – we did a lot of testing of DTN over TCP/IP (with IP neighbor discovery and Nak-Oriented Multicast) for DARPA a few years back, tested the system in the field at a USMC base with mobile ground units for weeks, and proved that DTN works great in terrestrial WIfi network scenarios, as long as your Wifi is up – and when it’s not or it’s intermittent, DTN store and forward fixed that, so in all test scenarios (multicast, unicast with different ground relay configurations as one would find in combat situations, etc.) DTN always saved the day. DTN end-to-end on lunar surface ops will fix intermittent IP links if they use DTN as it was designed, which is end-to-end. If they decide to drop bundles into a non-DTN lunar surface network and go with the so-called “islands-of-IP” concept, well I hope they like what they end up with.

(GRC never wanted to do DTN in their spacesuits (for this reason and that reason, going back to the Constellation days even), but I’m sure they’ll figure out something to help with astronaut to earth comm reliability eventually.. In any case, DTN (BBN’s implementation by the way) over 802.11 networks with and without multicast and IPND was tested rigorously for the 5 years of the DARPA DTN program, so I agree that the surface DTN/IP cases won’t impact any near-term CCSDS standards work.)
Thanks
Leigh

From: SIS-DTN <sis-dtn-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org> on behalf of Felix Flentge via SIS-DTN <sis-dtn at mailman.ccsds.org>
Reply-To: Felix Flentge <Felix.Flentge at esa.int>
Date: Wednesday, June 12, 2024 at 7:14 AM
To: "Booth, Stephanie L. (GRC-LCN0)" <stephanie.l.booth at nasa.gov>, "Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de" <Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de>
Cc: "sis-dtn at mailman.ccsds.org" <sis-dtn at mailman.ccsds.org>
Subject: Re: [Sis-dtn] [EXTERNAL] [BULK] Re: DTN Reference Scenarios

Thanks Stephanie,

we have considered adding IP networks (surface or spacecraft + visiting vehicles) into the reference scenario but decided to not include those for the time being. They were considered less relevant for the scenario as we wanted to focus on BP. Additional BP nodes which are reachable via IP CLA are a bit less interesting as they are already present in the terrestrial networks and are always connected (more or less).

However, the question of mixed IP / BP network is extremely relevant for Lunar scenarios (although currently not too much in the focus of CCSDS). I am wondering whether we could take the presented Lunar Reference Scenario as a base scenario and define an extension for your purpose (adding some IP networks). If something within the base (BP) lunar scenario is not adequate for this I believe it could be added. Would that work for you?
(And I would hope that someone with more knowledge about the expected IP networks would volunteer to make a proposal for that extension.)

I think this may be a general approach: we try to define some base scenarios which can then be extended for certain questions (e.g., I could imagine that somebody could add different traffic generation patterns for QoS work, or use different error rates for other link types, ...).

Regards,
Felix

From: Booth, Stephanie L. (GRC-LCN0) <stephanie.l.booth at nasa.gov>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2024 6:09 PM
To: Felix Flentge <Felix.Flentge at esa.int>; Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de
Cc: sis-dtn at mailman.ccsds.org
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] [BULK] Re: [Sis-dtn] DTN Reference Scenarios

I am going to chime in on Felix’s second comment below on behalf of Rachel Dudukovich and mine’s conversation about the ppt.

It would be good to include more 3GPP/WiFi nodes but in addition, build up a scenario with different sub-networks that are both DTN and non-DTN. That’s one of the things DTN is supposed to help handle. By doing this there would be a lot of things to work out for the ground DTN gateways and such. For example, there would be different classes of nodes (gateway, edge nodes, etc). If you can create a picture encompassing it all that would be great! Especially for network management and routing since we need to clearly show where the various decision-making elements take place.

Stephanie Booth

From: SIS-DTN <sis-dtn-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org>> On Behalf Of Felix Flentge via SIS-DTN
Sent: Friday, June 7, 2024 4:13 AM
To: Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de<mailto:Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de>
Cc: sis-dtn at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn at mailman.ccsds.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [BULK] Re: [Sis-dtn] DTN Reference Scenarios

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Hi Tomaso,

Please see my replies below.

Regards,
Felix

From: Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de<mailto:Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de> <Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de<mailto:Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de>>
Sent: Friday, June 7, 2024 9:44 AM
To: Felix Flentge <Felix.Flentge at esa.int<mailto:Felix.Flentge at esa.int>>
Cc: sis-dtn at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn at mailman.ccsds.org>; Edward.Birrane at jhuapl.edu<mailto:Edward.Birrane at jhuapl.edu>
Subject: AW: DTN Reference Scenarios

Hi Felix,

thank you for sharing the slides presented yesterday.

Just three comments:

1)      I see no mention of optical communications, while the lunar WG within IOAG was pointing to them too. Any reason for excluding them now from the picture?

FF: At least Moonlight does not include optical trunk link (, yet) and the scenario seems complex enough for the time being.

2)      The SOIS-WIR WG has been working on green and blue books about the communication solutions for in-situ planetary network, possibly resulting in the coexistence of 3GPP/WiFi solutions with DTN-based ones. Is this also captured in the pictures you have put in your slides?

FF: No, we have considered adding more nodes on surfaces  but I think it does not considerably change the scenario (again, seems already complex enough). It would certainly be exciting to consider surface IP networks as well but I would keep this for later.

3)      As to where push information about all (and possibly other) DTN reference scenarios, let’s not forget that we have the CCSDS 734.0-G-1 “Rationale, Scenarios, and Requirements for DTN in Space” which is since long (the document was published already in 2010) in our ToDo list for the 5-year review. Probably the material you provided in the slides could be further elaborated and expanded for a new version of that green book. In any case it is probably now time to think how and when to start the 5-year review of that book (I know all our resources are on the blue and orange books, but that green book is really old and must be refreshed)

FF: Yes, I could imagine the scenarios ending up in the green book but I would like to finish the first version asap. Maybe we can have them yellow (‘yellow is the new green’) first just to have something to reference to.

Just another point somehow correlated to scenarios: during the monthly telco between SIS and IETF DTN WG, it emerged that IETF would like to come up with a concept/white paper about the challenges of space internetworking. Moreover, a first step would be to review and update RFC4838 which now contains some outdated content that should be revised. I add here Ed who can say a few words more on this point.

FF: Indeed, I think that these scenarios are also relevant in this context as they may help to add some more realism to the general discussions. However, we should stress that the intention is more short-term and still very agency-centric so this should not limit work on scalable solutions for large networks.

Regards,

Tomaso

Von: SIS-DTN <sis-dtn-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org>> Im Auftrag von Felix Flentge via SIS-DTN
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 6. Juni 2024 17:57
An: Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN <sis-dtn at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Betreff: [Sis-dtn] DTN Reference Scenarios

Dear All,

I have uploaded today’s presentation on DTN Reference Scenarios to CWE:

https://cwe.ccsds.org/sis/docs/SIS-DTN/Other%20Documents/DTN%20Reference%20Scenario/CCSDS%20DTN%20Scenarios.pptx?d=wf3b24c8d83344cf998bc7846fe279269<https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/cwe.ccsds.org/sis/docs/SIS-DTN/Other*20Documents/DTN*20Reference*20Scenario/CCSDS*20DTN*20Scenarios.pptx?d=wf3b24c8d83344cf998bc7846fe279269__;JSUlJSU!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!IWzuZP6K6VNS-GM3zYF4f_Vq2KPbGbcKpV9frpbG5S59NWyqvdGIcvIQ8LwdyR34QgLsAU-zavlduSE05LGyTzp0XuU$>

Please let us know if you have any feedback (in particular, on the overall topologies – we need to fix them now for the next steps).

Regards,
Felix

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