[Moims-dai] Todays Telecon: PDI on PDI
D or C Sawyer
Sawyer at acm.org
Mon Jun 18 18:30:34 UTC 2018
(Unfortunately I will be unavailable to participate in tomorrow’s DAI telecon as I’ll be traveling to Canada)
Dear David, John, et al.,
I believe the current OAIS RM review has a serious flaw. The comments below from David and John, who are both good friends and colleagues and have been for long before we started the OAIS RM, now make clear that we have a significant disconnect that I can’t ignore. For those who may not be familiar with the history of the OAIS RM, we started it to provide a common communication framework within which to describe the preservation of digital information. (For an independent study of its original development, see Cal Lee’s 2009 paper Open Archival Information System (OAIS) Reference Model <https://ils.unc.edu/callee/p4020-lee.pdf>.) This lack of a common vocabulary and communication framework is why we developed it as a conceptual model and why we required (and still do) so little regarding information modeling for an Archive to call itself an “OAIS”. Although we say this very clearly, the extensive modeling of both information and function has led many to interpret it as an architecture for implementation, not just for communication.
The current 5-year review process for the OAIS RM is the first one where I find some active participants applying implementation perspectives to alter communication of long-standing archival concepts, as evidenced by David and John’s comments below that are endorsing this approach to the original, long standing, Information Package concept. The problem with this approach is that implementations are specific and to an extent unique while archival concepts are expected to be broadly relevant and informative regardless of implementations. Concepts are to be evaluated at the conceptual level, such as whether they are still valid, fit in with other related concepts, and are clearly expressed. Using a few implementations to narrow a concept is virtually certain to leave out other implementations and is thus illogical. This is particularly of concern with the OAIS RM Information Package concept, one of only two information concepts (the other being the Information Object) that an Archive needs to ‘support’ to be considered an ‘OAIS’. In this context, ‘support’ means that the Archive can use the concept to discuss its implementations and can do so in a way consistent with the meaning of the concept. It can’t prescribe any features of an implementation because it is only a concept. I discuss this in more detail below in response to David and John’s comments. I also discuss and refute David’s implication that applying PDI to Representation Information is not implementable, or not reasonably implementable.
In conclusion, I find the proposal (SC222) to modify the Information Package concept, so as to exclude the understanding that PDI could be relevant to Representation Information, to be contrary to valid and widely acknowledged archival concepts and also inconsistent with OAIS RM statements on the role of PDI (Context, Provenance, Reference, Rights, Fixity) in the preservation of Content Information (and by extension any information to be preserved) within an Archive. I don’t know anyone who I think believes that PDI is not important to the preservation of its associated information.
Therefore I call for SC222 to be revisited and rejected. It may be necessary to revisit other SCs if the response to those SCs has not kept the proper perspective between concept and implementation. I would be very uncomfortable with an OAIS RM that mixes Conceptual and Implementation models while calling itself a Conceptual Model. It would open the OAIS RM to significant, and I feel valid, future community criticism.
Responses to John’s and David’s specific comments are included below, ending with an example implementation of PDI application to Content Information, with recursion.
Cheers-
Don
> On Jun 12, 2018, at 8:53 AM, David Giaretta <david at giaretta.org> wrote:
>
> See below
>
> From: MOIMS-DAI <moims-dai-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org <mailto:moims-dai-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org>> On Behalf Of John Garrett
> Sent: 12 June 2018 06:39
> To: 'MOIMS-Data Archive Interoperability' <moims-dai at mailman.ccsds.org <mailto:moims-dai at mailman.ccsds.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Moims-dai] Todays Telecon: PDI on PDI
>
> Hi,
>
> I think we are converging on an understanding of preservation of PDI objects.
>
> I still support SC#222 which we had previously agreed on. Some comments on Don’s comments below.
>
> Peace and joy,
> -JOhn
>
> From: MOIMS-DAI [mailto:moims-dai-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org <mailto:moims-dai-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org>] On Behalf Of D or C Sawyer
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2018 11:57 PM
> To: MOIMS DAI List <moims-dai at mailman.ccsds.org <mailto:moims-dai at mailman.ccsds.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Moims-dai] Todays Telecon: PDI on PDI
>
> Hi David,
>
> I’m pleased that you like the ‘Preserved Data Object’ modeling view (not surprised as it is much of what you’ve been pushing), but I can’t agree to SC222 for the reasons given below. I think my proposal below combines the best of both and should eliminate the Content Information controversy discussed in the last 2 telecoms.
>
>
>
>> On Jun 9, 2018, at 4:47 PM, David Giaretta <david at giaretta.org <mailto:david at giaretta.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Don
>>
>> You almost have it but, to be logically consistent, it needs another step.
>>
>> The “Preserved Data Object (PDO)” term would be very useful, especially as an intermediate term between the Information Object and AIP.
>>
>
> Yes, I think I expressed this when I mentioned that successive application should lead to an AIP, except that it doesn’t include the Packaging Information and the Descriptive Information which are an important part of our defined AIP.
>
> At first look, I like the idea of PDO. But of course will need more time to think it through.
> One concern I have is that there could be lots of places where the concept could be used and it could cascade at this late date into many needed updates in OAIS. So I will reserve my agreement until I can get an idea of how many updates are needed and whether and how quickly we can finish them. Our deadline for completing OAIS was our last CCSDS meeting.
> Good point John
>
I’m was not proposing to discuss PDO throughout the document, just in an Annex to satisfy David’s desire to have a recursive Data Object view available.
>> You wrote
>> “The only provision I would add is that both the Rep. Info. and the PDI would need to be optional in the sense that a ‘naked’ or ‘partially dressed’ Data Object needs to be allowed in order to stop the recursion. Of course the stopping criteria are different between the Rep. Info. and the PDI.”
>> Yes, that is why in the Information Object diagram the RepInfo recursion shows 1 to * since * can be anything from 0 upwards. The link to PDI is 1:1 currently but we would have to change this to 1:*. We would need some text to discuss how the recursion ends.
>>
>
> I fully agree.
>
> I disagree. I think an Information Package always requires PDI. Otherwise what is the difference between an Information Object and an Information Package?
John’s comment is missing the context that the discussion is the AIP, not the more general Information Package. Further, the Information Object concept and the Information Package concept, as defined in Section 2.2, are generic CONCEPTs defined clearly in the OAIS RM to have all the components that are clearly visible. There is no debate about what is included and the Information Object and Information Package CONCEPTS are always distinct. However for an Archive implementation to be an OAIS, we say it must SUPPORT this Information Object concept and Information Package concept. It requires nothing more regarding information modeling. What does this SUPPORT mean? As regards the Information Object, it certainly can be satisfied as long as the Archive recognizes that one of its Data Objects together with its Representation Information is an Information Object. It can’t use Information Object to mean something different. As regards Information Package, the exact same type of recognition satisfies this requirement. It can’t use ‘Information Package’ to mean something different. We kept these requirements to a minimum so as not to constrain implementations. Note that the OAIS RM does not actually use the Information Package concept of Section 2.2 as given, but in Section 2.3 it introduces specialized forms as SIPs, AIPs, and DIPs. When the modeling shows it as a SIP, it may or may not have ALL the components of the Section 2.2 Information Package and also may not be an Information Object. When it is an AIP it MUST have all the components and then it WILL BE an Information Object because it has a Data Object and its Representation Information. When it is a DIP it may not have all the components and may not be an Information Object. These are all CONCEPTS and not implementations. Actual OAIS implementations may or may not follow these concepts exactly. Note that NONE of the more detailed information modeling in Section 4.2 is REQUIRED to be ’supported’ by an OAIS.
Of course we hope that OAIS implementations will closely follow the SIP, AIP, and DIP models and thus be able to easily address their implementations using these terms. We also hope that the information modeling in Section 4.2 will also be adopted for describing their implementations. We do NOT say that implementations must treat the information modeling as an ARCHITECTURE to be followed, although in many cases this can work. This fact makes it easy for people to slip from concept to implementation views when reviewing the concepts.
> I was making the analogy with Representation Information – the “0” would only apply where the iteration ends, just as with Representation Information. But it is an interesting point about needing to keep the difference between Info Object and Info Package. For RepInfo the same would apply at the “0” where Data Object and Info Object become indistinguishable. We certainly need to make sure the meaning of “0” is clear.
>
As noted above, the Information Object and Information Package are ALWAYS unique concepts. I have no problem adding a conceptual model showing PDI recursion. This is not ruled out by the current modeling but it seems useful to make this recursion view explicit. An actual implementation may find many of the PDI components not necessary, apart from Fixity.
>> So far so good.
>>
>> But, in order to actually preserve something, we really do need all the components of an AIP i.e. we need to know how the Data Object, RepInfo and PDI are connected together, and have some overall description. In other words, whatever you want to call it, it is an AIP.
>>
>
> Yes, we need the full AIP and the current modeling provides this, apart from showing PDI can be recursive, which as you note could easily be added.
>
> I don’t agree that we need all the components of an AIP in each and every instance to preserve something. It is definitely useful to have it all, but is not necessary in every situation for every Information Object. As we’ve all agreed, we need to break the recursion as some point by not having all of PDI for everything.
You are talking about an IMPLEMENTATION. The conceptual model says an AIP has ALL the components. If you can make the case that your AIP implementation doesn’t need all the components, then fine. The current AIP, based on an IP, strictly speaking says nothing about recursion of either the Representation Information or the PDI. However they both can be recursive and implementations will deal with this as they see fit. They may or may not pass an audit but this is a totally different issue. This confusion between the CONCEPTUAL model and an IMPLEMENTATION model, as regards what should appear in the OAIS RM, is the fundamental underlying issue that allows the SC222 proposal.
> I think we need to carefully document the “edge” cases and distinguish these from the more general case where all the AIP components are needed.
>
Again, this is a valid consideration for an implementation but has NO bearing on the conceptual model. Based on the OAIS RM, an AIP implementation does not need to have ALL the components even in the general case (i.e., because the AIP concept is not addressing implementations). This could be made more clear in the OAIS RM. This says nothing about what may be required in an audit.
>> In terms of an Annex – that would be helpful to contain the bulk of the discussion and examples. If we move the discussion to a Normative Annex, then the only change we need is that agreed in http://review.oais.info/show_bug.cgi?id=222 <http://review.oais.info/show_bug.cgi?id=222> but there would have to be a small amount of additional explanatory text in the body of the standard.
>>
>
> I can not agree with SC222. I note that SC222 is titled “Change PDI to be describing CDO rather than Content Information”. This is stated to be a ‘significant’ change and I would say it is a radical, unnecessary, and counter productive change, for the following reasons:
>
> I on the other hand feel it is a necessary change. I think conceptually the change makes more sense than the current situation.
> I also think it a necessary change.
I believe I’ve clarified that not only is it not necessary for the conceptual modeling, but to do so reduces the generality of what is now a perfectly valid and widely accepted archival concept (Information Package) that is one of the two most fundamental information concepts in the OAIS RM.
>
> 1. SC222 provides the following rationale : “While discussing other SCs, we are often confronted with situations where applying PDI to Representation Information raises significant problems. I think this change may make it easier to resolve some of the other SCs.”
>
> This statement clearly states that discussions leading to this proposal were concerned with implementations of particular views. Further text discusses issues with possible approaches to applying the Fixity component of PDI to Representation Information and to the combined CDO with Representation Information. All of the text clearly expresses concerns with a set of implementation approaches and therefor should immediately be suspect as a rationale for changes. In fact it appears that not only were the approaches being considered too rigid, but the view of the information models was also too rigid because there are implementation approaches that can work. The OAIS RM presents CONCEPTUAL MODELS and not IMPLEMENTATION MODELS. The OAIS RM was generated to provide a common framework of terms and concepts to facilitate communication. This is easy to forget as it can easily be viewed, and often has been, as an implementation model. For example, Section 2.2 is stated to contain the only information models that an OAIS implementation needs to support in order to be an OAIS. But what do we say in 2.2, and specifically regarding Figure 2-3, in this context? We take a top-down approach and give a very high level (i.e.,with little detail) view of an Information Package involving four basic types of information (Content Information, PDI, Packaging Information, and Descriptive Information) and their relationships. We show Packaging Information as a simple container with a small divider, one side holding Content Information and the other PDI, and we state that PDI is needed to preserve the Content Information, to ensure it is clearly identified, and to understand the environment in which it was created. We show Descriptive Information as being associated with this Information Package to facilitate finding the Content Information of interest.
>
> I think the Conceptual Model was designed to be and should reflect real implementations.
This was never the case and should never be the case, as I’ve pointed out. The conceptual modeling in the OAIS RM was based on the insight of those with archival experience, recognizing deficiencies and trying to apply good archival concepts to digital information. That is why we were fortunate to have the participation of Bruce Ambacher from the US National Archives and why the result gained the approval of Ken Thibedaue, then head of the US National Archives. The archival concepts we’ve included have been throughly reviewed and accepted by both digital and non-digital archivists. We expected future implementations to adopt the concepts that make sense in their particular situations. The auditing of digital archives may take a more rigid perspective, but that is not the function of the OAIS RM. I think the statement above probably reflects digital auditing concerns.
> I agree with John – the Conceptual Model should be implementable and real implementations should be mappable to the Conceptual Model if the implementation conforms.
Almost: An Architectural model should be implementable and real implementation should be mappable to the Architectural model if the implementation conforms. The Conceptual model is at a more abstract level and should be useful as a framework for discussing and comparing concepts, architectural models and implementations.
>
> Note what it does NOT say. It does NOT say how PDI is supposed to be related to Content Information, which is defined to be the Content Data Object and its Representation Information. It could be implemented as only applied to the Content Data Object (as SC222 proposes), it could also be implemented as applied individually to the Content Data Object and the Representation Information. For example, a registry of Representation Information objects must perform preservation and must be concerned with source, version history, and fixity (i.e., PDI) and therefore needs to maintain some level of PDI. One would expect PDI applied to a Content Data Object and to differ from that applied to its Representation Information. There is no OAIS requirement other than being able to describe an OAIS implementation as using these high level concepts, and this can be done regardless of the implementation approach as long as these information types can be identified. On the other hand, adopting SC222 says that a conforming OAIS is expected to be able to relate PDI to its Content Data Object, AND there is no reason to expect any PDI to be applied to the Representation Information. This is limiting the concept of PDI applicability that is contrary to actual implementations (e.g., Representation Information Registries) while such a limitation is not there now and thus would be a step backward.
>
> I think this is stretching understanding of normal readers. I think a normal person would interrupt a statement that PDI is associated with Content Information to mean that PDI applied to the total Content Information and was not applied sometimes to part of the Content Information and sometimes to all of it. And if I can apply PDI to only part of the Content Information, why can’t I just provide PDI for the Representation Information and not the CDO?
Certainly a ‘normal reader’ would understand a statement that ‘PDI associated with Content Information’ to mean that PDI applies to the whole Content Information AT THE CONCEPTUAL LEVEL. This is based on a fundamental and widely accepted archival concept. But how implementations deal with this concept is a different matter. An implementation could apply PDI only to the Representation Information, but this would seem hard to justify and would seem unlikely to pass a creditable audit. Since both the CDO and the Representation Information need preservation, I would apply it to both except where local circumstances suggest otherwise.
>
> Also changing the relationship of PDI to only the CDO instead of the whole Content Information, does not mean that we can’t have PDI-like information applied to Representation Information. We’ve just been agreeing that we can preserve and applied PDI-like information to the components of PDI Information. What is the difference with doing the same thing for RepInfo?
> The underlying question is “ How does the OAIS preserve the PDI and the Representation Information?”
An actual OAIS will apply PDI to the Content Information to the extent that makes sense in its particular domain and for the specific Content Information under consideration. This can include applying PDI (some or all of the components) to the Content Data Object and separately to the Representation Information, again to the extent it makes sense. Since some seem to think this can’t be done, I’m providing a brief summary below of an approach I might use if I were designing such an implementation.
>
> 2. SC222 proposes that PDI is to be associated only with the Content Data Object. The only way this can be reasonable (given that clearly some Representation Information will have PDI), is to view Content Information and its Content Data Object as ANY Information Object and ANY Data Object.
> I missed last week so I guess I’m missing something here. I don’t understand the problem here.
> I think what I was saying was that any information that the archive wants/needs to preserve should be viewable at Content Information.
I think that transforming Content Information into a label that would also apply separately to Representation Information and separately to PDI is highly confusing and therefore unproductive, to say the least. That you want to see a recursive view is why I offered the Preserved Data Object conceptual model. However it can not take the place of Content Information which is an extremely useful concept that would be lost if turned into a label that could be applied to any information that the archive wants/needs to preserve.
>
> This would be a very major and clearly controversial, (as per your proposal and 2 recent telecons), revision to what most everyone understands Content Information to be. It is defined as the ‘original target of preservation’, and widely understood to refer to the primary information that external providers are submitting to the OAIS for preservation. I believe it would be a major step backward to loose the ability to clearly refer to this information category.
> I think that in most cases the Producers (and the DC) think to “target of preservation” is the CDO (not the CDO as well as the RepInfo). They expect RepInfo to understand the CDO, but I don’t think most people are really considering that to be the target of the preservation.
> Some examples of this, if you migrate the CDO from a particular format (which has an associated standards document describing that base format) to a new, more modern format (which has an associated standards document describing that base format), I don’t think most people would care if the standards document (or maybe the software decoding it) describing the original format is preserved.
>
>
Again, the above comment reflects a particular implementation perspective and can not refute the obvious fact that information that has been encoded is useless unless the decoding information (e.g., Representation Information) is available. For your example, the decoding information is being preserved elsewhere - e.g., by some standards organization. The reality is not up for debate - it is just a question of who is doing the preservation of the Representation Information and whether it is remaining adequate. We know standards evolve and, for example, there are multiple versions of PDF/A in use. An archive relying on PDF/A should know which versions it is using and where, and should maintain appropriate associated PDI.
>
> 3. As you’ve agreed, there is utility in a model that takes a Data Object central approach to it’s preservation as I described below and which I called a “Preserved Data Object” model. Adding this to an Annex with a proper discussion, and as normative if you’d like, together with maintaining the current information model views augmented with making PDI recursive, provides retention of all the good and historic OAIS information modeling and terminology while allowing for the addition of this alternative view for an enhanced perspective. It is usually productive to have more than one way to view a topic. I see this as a win-win situation and it should remove the Content Information controversy.
>
>
> Cheers-
> Don
>
>
> As I wrote previously – what we need for logical consistency if SC222 as agreed previously, and a normative annex to explain the issue more fully.
>
>
I believe I have logically and practically refuted SC222 and the only reason I can think these implementation concerns have intruded is because several participants are very active in the auditing efforts.
EXAMPLE IMPLEMENTATION: PDI APPLICATION TO CONTENT INFORMATION
A couple of participants have taken the view that the application of PDI to Content Information is not implementable or is impractical, despite arguing that conceptually PDI is important for all information being preserved. If it is a valid concept, which it surely is, then some form of it must be implementable as long as one takes a reasonable and practical approach as any Archive must do. Perhaps it is the potentially recursive nature of Representation Information and PDI, along with the possibility that PDI may need Representation Information, etc. that has some concerned. Real implementations, apart from conceptual applications that seem to never end, will deal with these recursions in practical ways. Here I offer one approach, part of which was implemented at the former National Space Science Data Center and managed by John, now augmented to include PDI and its potential recursion in a practical fashion.
The Content Information of interest is set of NASA satellite observations of local magnetic field values during a period of one minute, each minute. It has been provided to the OAIS as a set of digital files (Content Data Objects, or CDOs) along with a Representation Information component (RP1) addressing the format of a CDO file and a component (RP2) addressing the meaning of the structural fields identified in RP1. These components are in PDF/A format and contain English descriptions where the English criteria, as Archive policy, are also described in a PDF/A file. PDF/A hardware and software is included to terminate representation networks. The CDOs and the Representation Information components all have associated PDI files, apart from the English criteria file as it is judged to be unnecessary. The PDI files contain their own PDI components of Context, Provenance, and Rights information, and are thus ‘self-recursive’. Fixity checksums are maintained in associated databases, one for the CDOs and one for the Representation and PDI information. All files have object identifiers in their file names. A schematic of the objects, object identifiers, and the relationships are show in the PDF file attached below this text. The resulting scheme shows a set of AIP components (but without all the Packaging Information), with PDI applicable to the CDOs, Representation Information, and the PDI itself.
A schematic of the above implementation is included in this attachment:
======
>
>
>> Regards
>>
>> ..David
>>
>> From: MOIMS-DAI <moims-dai-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org <mailto:moims-dai-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org>> On Behalf Of D or C Sawyer
>> Sent: 07 June 2018 16:35
>> To: MOIMS DAI List <moims-dai at mailman.ccsds.org <mailto:moims-dai at mailman.ccsds.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [Moims-dai] Todays Telecon: PDI on PDI
>>
>> Hi David,
>>
>> I believe I now understand your concept on how you want to approach the PDI on PDI issue. It came to me when I realized that you do not disagree that showing that PDI can be recursive solves the central issue of PDI on PDI, and further that it does not require any changes in any of the existing information modeling of the current (2012) OAIS Reference Model. However you make clear in your concluding comment that this is not your preferred approach and you feel your approach is to ‘re-use the existing concepts cleanly’. Coupling this with your past insistence on removing PDI from being applied to Representation Information, as is implied by the current view of the Information Package ( Figure 2-3 and Figure 4-13 ), led me to reeximine this changed modeling view in light of your past arguments including that this view can be applied to ANY information. This led me to an epiphany of sorts, which I think captures the essence of what you have been arguing and that I will describe now in a generic way.
>>
>> I want to focus on the information modeling aspects only and avoid, at least for now, any consideration of what the current OAIS RM figures and text allow or don’t allow.
>>
>> If one simply creates a model where PDI is associated only with the Data Object, and no longer with Representation Information, the result looks like our Information Object (Figure 4-10) with the addition of PDI being associated with the Data Object. This new figure would show a PDI object being contained in the Information Object (and say positioned to the left of the Data Object in Figure 4-10), with an arrow from the Data Object to the PDI object labeled ‘further described by’ in analogy to Figure 4-13. Since this is a new figure, let’s call this Information Object Plus (or IO+) to avoid controversy. The beauty of this figure, which I think you have in mind, is that it can be viewed as a generic view of how to preserve a Data Object. In other words, a properly preserved Data Object should have both Representation Information and PDI. In this sense, I think a better term for this model would be a Preserved Data Object (PDO), which term I’ll now use. From this perspective, I can understand its proposed role of being applied to ANY Data Object that the Archive is intending to preserve. If that Data Object is a NASA generated image, it says that the preserved version should have both Rep. Info. and PDI. If that Data Object is a Representation Information Data Object, then it should have its own Representation Information and its own PDI. If that Data Object is a PDI Data Object, then is should also have its own Representation Information and its own PDI. This of course leads to recursion of both Rep. Info. and PDI, both of which need to be limited and this would need to be addressed in any discussion of such a PDO model. The only provision I would add is that both the Rep. Info. and the PDI would need to be optional in the sense that a ‘naked’ or ‘partially dressed’ Data Object needs to be allowed in order to stop the recursion. Of course the stopping criteria are different between the Rep. Info. and the PDI.
>>
>> I see this as an alternative way to look at the preservation environment of Data Objects being preserved within the Archive. I see this as a Data Object centered view, rather than an Information Package view. This PDO model appears as a tool that can be used to look at each Data Object’s environment. Its successive application should lead to the same result as the AIP, but without the AIP’s associated Packaging Information and its Package Description (Figure 4-13).
>>
>> I find this PDO to be a useful view and assuming this is at least close to what you are seeing, and I have to believe it is as it seems to fit most of what you have been saying from a modeling perspective, I would recommend it be addressed in an Annex as a recursive model to be applied to Data Objects being preserved within the Archive. It has a ‘bottom up’ aspect (starting with Data Objects) versus a ‘top down’ information aspect, and that could be useful in the auditing efforts. However I don’t see it as a replacement for the current models and approach which is why I recommend it be in an Annex.
>>
>> Below I have just a few minor comments on your comments.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jun 5, 2018, at 2:10 PM, David Giaretta <david at giaretta.org <mailto:david at giaretta.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Just a few corrections where Don has slightly mistaken what I said.
>>>
>>> " David raises the issue that, well, the high level model view of figure 2-3 doesn’t say how the PDI is preserved"
>>> No I did not say that; I simply asked how PDI is preserved - not referencing any particular figure. It is a general question that we need to ask.
>>>
>> I was not intending to put words in your mouth, and thanks for the clarification. We can consider it a question I might ask.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> "David mentioned that he finds most archives are not applying PDI to Representation Information, but from a conceptual model perspective this is no justification as I, for one, have given several examples where it is relevant"
>>> It is true that I said that. The reason for my saying it was to point out that making the change proposed in http://review.oais.info/show_bug.cgi?id=222 <http://review.oais.info/show_bug.cgi?id=222> would not cause any problems for existing archives, because it describes what they currently do while at the same time would allow a cleaner and more consistent model where OAIS concepts apply to any and all information which an OAIS requires to preserve.
>>
>> If my understanding of your view is captured by my PDO model example, then Rep. Info. could have PDI as well.
>>
>>
>>
>>> @Mark – how does NARA do, say, Fixity of a Content Information Object, in particular how does it deal with the Representation Information?
>>> @Bob – ditto
>>> @Steve - ditto
>>>
>>> One thought - many things have multiple roles or labels. My dog Monty is at the same time a dog, a mammal, a friend and a living thing; in different contexts I know that any living thing needs food to continue, so the same applies to him. We use the same idea in OAIS where the OAIS can also be a Producer, and a member of a Designated Community can also be a Producer. The crux of my argument is that by simply re-using the term Content Information one can immediately re-use all the OAIS concepts.
>>>
>>> Don says
>>> " They are clearly distinct categories of information with likely different sources and with the PDI being subservient to the Content Information."
>>> That is true. But the same can be said of many pieces of information, even that supplied by external Producers, for example a CAD design for an aircraft and the test results for various of its components; the latter would probably not exist without the former. Should we make a distinction about difference sources and subservience i.e. one would not exist without the other and so they have to be dealt with (in this case preserved) differently, or should we just say that the reference model is good for everything?
>>
>> I struggled to understand your last sentence until I came up with the PDO view above. It now seems to me that making these distinctions could be viewed as taking away from the perspective of being able to use a PDO like model in a recursive manner. I think the Preserved Data Object (PDO) view is useful in addition to the current view, as I’ve stated above.
>>
>> My point in making the statement, which you acknowledge is true, is that people think of them differently and deal with them differently in terms of the amount and types of effort applied. In practice the different types we’ve identified will often get managed by the Archive in different ways. For example, some Content Data is very large while Representation Information tends to be very much smaller, and this is managed in different ways. I would say this is a different dimension to the preservation discussion from that involving the recursive use of a model focused on Data Objects.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Also
>>> " In fact, we should always try to avoid reusing the same terminology in different contexts where the meaning is different to some degree "
>>> Surely not true! One of the key ideas of the OAIS Information Model was to identify the commonalities between different concepts, in particular identifying Fixity, Reference, Provenance etc all as Information objects - so that we did not need to invent a plethora of nearly identical terms such as " secondary PDI" and why we did not introduce the term “secondary Representation Information”.
>>
>> This response seems to miss my point. The terms you mention are defined to be as unambiguous as we can make them. When we use them, we want them to mean precisely the same thing wherever they are used. Your reference to ‘secondary PDI’, for example, is simply a way of talking one layer of abstraction down from the PDI when PDI is acknowledged to be recursive. The same is true for Representation Information. These are not examples in contradiction to my statement. So I believe the statement is true. Is there a case where we use the same OAIS concept in different places but mean something slightly different as to what the concept is?
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> He also says
>>> " This would be shown as a recursive relationship, but all still within the same AIP. We could include a diagram showing this recursion of PDI on PDI."
>>> Why show an incomplete view? Should we show all the individual components of PDI? Why not simply re-use the existing concepts cleanly?
>>>
>> I believe my PDO model example is at the heart of your concept, if not how you see instantiating it. If not, then I’m at a loss to understand.
>>
>> Cheers-
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> ..David
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: MOIMS-DAI <moims-dai-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org <mailto:moims-dai-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org>> On Behalf Of D or C Sawyer
>>> Sent: 05 June 2018 18:14
>>> To: MOIMS DAI List <moims-dai at mailman.ccsds.org <mailto:moims-dai at mailman.ccsds.org>>
>>> Subject: [Moims-dai] Todays Telecon: PDI on PDI
>>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> This is my third attempt to try to make my points clear and I think I’m improving. You will be the judge.
>>>
>>> ——
>>> OAIS provides the view, clearly shown in Figure 2-3, of the Producer role submitting SIPs to the Archive. In figure 2-4 the SIPs are used to create the Content Information, and as Mark notes, then the PDI for that Content Information can be obtained/created and associated. In this sense, the PDI is supplementary to the Content Information and would not exist but for the Content Information. The result is an AIP for storage in the Archive. In the above scenario, which is at the heart of OAIS, there is no implication that the PDI described above would be taken to be Content Information. They are clearly distinct categories of information with likely different sources and with the PDI being subservient to the Content Information. This is the top level view that sets the context for understanding the role played by the Producer and the relationships among the types of information objects.
>>>
>>> David raises the issue that, well, the high level model view of figure 2-3 doesn’t say how the PDI is preserved and this is a concern. But note that it doesn’t say how the Content Information is preserved either. It simply says they are preserved as part (contained) of the AIP. So at this high level, they are all understood to be preserved as part of a specific AIP. I think this is a fair understanding that most people will agree with.
>>>
>>> Expanding the model of an AIP, we get figure 4-10 which defines an Information Object. This applies to the Content Information because it is defined to be an Information Object. We see that it consists of a Data Object and its Representation Information.
>>>
>>> Further expanding inside the AIP with figure 4-11 we see the Representation Information detailed as being composed of three types of Representation Information and with a recursion relation that ends at some point (not germane for this discussion).
>>>
>>> Still inside the AIP, and further clarifying the nature of PDI and Representation Information, we have figure 4-12 that describes both of them as Information Objects, which means they also have Data Objects and Representation Information. The result at this point is a set of data objects, all logically inside a single AIP, whose number is limited because the Representation Information recursion is limited. They are preserved by virtue of their logical inclusion inside the AIP.
>>>
>>> Now the question is asked, since we thought that PDI was important in the preservation of the Content Information, which is the Content Data Object and its Representation Information, why isn’t it also important to associate secondary PDI with the original PDI? Well the answer is, it might or might not be depending on the Archive and the specific original PDI. If it is important, how should that be conceived and shown? Original PDI was associated with the Content Information. By analogy, secondary PDI would be associated with original PDI. This would be shown as a recursive relationship, but all still within the same AIP. We could include a diagram showing this recursion of PDI on PDI. This recursion ends when the Archive decides that it no longer makes sense to continue it. It may be different for the different components of PDI, which are shown in table 4-1 and listed in the text. The PDI diagram could be broken out further with these components, but I’m not sure it is worth it. Since they are classed as Information Objects, they could also be broken out in the Representation Information dimension but I see no need and this recursion is limited anyway.
>>>
>>> The point that I hope is becoming clear is that there is no need to reuse Content Information with all its implications from the high level model of an Information Package and apply it to PDI. This only promotes communication difficulties as the past two telcons and intervening messages have demonstrated. In fact, we should always try to avoid reusing the same terminology in different contexts where the meaning is different to some degree. That is certainly the case when wanting to apply Content Information to PDI. In short, there is no need.
>>>
>>> I recommend we put a simple diagram of PDI recursion into Section 4.2 and briefly talk about limiting the recursion by what the Archive finds is practical in each case.
>>>
>>> As a corollary, there is no need to remove PDI from being applied to Representation Information as is currently being proposed. David mentioned that he finds most archives are not applying PDI to Representation Information, but from a conceptual model perspective this is no justification as I, for one, have given several examples where it is relevant. If one want to see PDI on PDI made more explicit, then at least the possibility of PDI on Representation Information needs to be retained. There is absolutely no good reason to remove it from the conceptual model now that (I Hope!) were not trying to apply the AIP to PDI. There are instead very relevant reasons to keep it.
>>>
>>> Cheers-
>>> Don
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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