[CESG] CESG-P-2017-06-004 Conditions
Thomas Gannett
thomas.gannett at tgannett.net
Sun Oct 29 22:51:12 UTC 2017
Dear CESG Members:
Conditions for approval of CESG-P-2017-06-004 Approval to release CCSDS 524.4-R-1, Mission Operations—Message Abstraction Layer Binding to ZMTP Transport (Red Book, Issue 1) for CCSDS Agency review have been resolved to the satisfaction of the ADs who voted to approve with conditions. The Secretariat will now proceed with CMC polling.
Thomas Gannett
thomas.gannett at tgannett.net
+1 443 472 0805
From: Barkley, Erik J (3970) [mailto:erik.j.barkley at jpl.nasa.gov]
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 1:10 PM
To: Champsavoir Nicolas; Shames, Peter M (312B); Burleigh, Scott C (312B); Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int
Cc: thomas.gannett at tgannett.net; Mario.Merri at esa.int; Behal Brigitte; Smith, Danford S. (GSFC-5800); Sam Cooper (sam at brightascension.com); Cesar.Coelho at esa.int; Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int; Philip.Brabbin at esa.int; dominik.marszk at esa.int
Subject: RE: CCSDS 524.4-R-1 (MAL Binding to ZMTP) Comments Disposition
Dear Nicolas,
The new annex retires my condition for the poll. My thanks to you and the working group for providing the new annex.
Best regards,
-Erik
From: <mailto:Mario.Merri at esa.int> Mario.Merri at esa.int [ <mailto:Mario.Merri at esa.int> mailto:Mario.Merri at esa.int]
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 12:40 PM
To: <mailto:thomas.gannett at tgannett.net> thomas.gannett at tgannett.net
Cc: <mailto:sam at brightascension.com> sam at brightascension.com; <mailto:danford.s.smith at nasa.gov> danford.s.smith at nasa.gov
Subject: Re: CCSDS 524.4-R-1 (MAL Binding to ZMTP) Comments Disposition
Hi Tom,
I guess with these emails you can proceed with calling the Agency Review.
Thanks,
__Mario
----- Forwarded by Mario Merri/esoc/ESA on 05/10/2017 18:38 -----
From: "Shames, Peter M (312B)" < <mailto:peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov> peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>
To: Sam Cooper < <mailto:sam at brightascension.com> sam at brightascension.com>, "Burleigh, Scott C (312B)" < <mailto:scott.c.burleigh at jpl.nasa.gov> scott.c.burleigh at jpl.nasa.gov>, " <mailto:Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int> Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int" < <mailto:Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int> Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int>
Cc: Behal Brigitte < <mailto:Brigitte.Behal at cnes.fr> Brigitte.Behal at cnes.fr>, " <mailto:Cesar.Coelho at esa.int> Cesar.Coelho at esa.int" < <mailto:Cesar.Coelho at esa.int> Cesar.Coelho at esa.int>, "Smith, Danford S. (GSFC-5800)" < <mailto:danford.s.smith at nasa.gov> danford.s.smith at nasa.gov>, " <mailto:dominik.marszk at esa.int> dominik.marszk at esa.int" < <mailto:dominik.marszk at esa.int> dominik.marszk at esa.int>, "Barkley, Erik J (3970)" < <mailto:erik.j.barkley at jpl.nasa.gov> erik.j.barkley at jpl.nasa.gov>, " <mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int> Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int" < <mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int> Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int>, " <mailto:Mario.Merri at esa.int> Mario.Merri at esa.int" < <mailto:Mario.Merri at esa.int> Mario.Merri at esa.int>, Champsavoir Nicolas < <mailto:Nicolas.Champsavoir at cnes.fr> Nicolas.Champsavoir at cnes.fr>, " <mailto:Philip.Brabbin at esa.int> Philip.Brabbin at esa.int" < <mailto:Philip.Brabbin at esa.int> Philip.Brabbin at esa.int>, " <mailto:thomas.gannett at tgannett.net> thomas.gannett at tgannett.net" < <mailto:thomas.gannett at tgannett.net> thomas.gannett at tgannett.net>
Date: 05/10/2017 17:51
Subject: Re: CCSDS 524.4-R-1 (MAL Binding to ZMTP) Comments Disposition
_____
I agree as well.
After looking back at some of the other MO materials it appears that you use the term "transport service" a rather broad reference and not "transport layer", which would normally be read as a reference to the ISO Transport Layer. I think that "transfer service" would be even better, since you use a very broad description of what this means and this avoids the confusion altogether.
Regards, Peter
From: Sam Cooper <sam at brightascension.com>
Date: Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 8:36 AM
To: Scott Burleigh <scott.c.burleigh at jpl.nasa.gov>, "Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int" <Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int>
Cc: Brigitte Behal <Brigitte.Behal at cnes.fr>, "Cesar.Coelho at esa.int" <Cesar.Coelho at esa.int>, Dan Smith <danford.s.smith at nasa.gov>, "dominik.marszk at esa.int" <dominik.marszk at esa.int>, Erik Barkley <erik.j.barkley at jpl.nasa.gov>, Gian Paolo Calzolari <Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int>, Mario Merri <Mario.Merri at esa.int>, Champsavoir Nicolas <Nicolas.Champsavoir at cnes.fr>, Peter Shames <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>, "Philip.Brabbin at esa.int" <Philip.Brabbin at esa.int>, Tom Gannett <thomas.gannett at tgannett.net>
Subject: Re: CCSDS 524.4-R-1 (MAL Binding to ZMTP) Comments Disposition
Hi Scott,
I was wondering if we could move this condition to a review RID item? In our WG teleconference yesterday we thought that this issue is something the working group could discuss at the technical workshop seeing as yourself and Peter have identified it as a wider issue with MO.
My view is that whilst it is important it does not have an effect on the technical content of the red book so we should continue the agency review and deal with it during that, if that is ok with you?
Cheers,
Sam.
On 05/10/2017 01:19, Burleigh, Scott C (312B) wrote:
Nicolas, how about this? I am fine with calling ZMTP a “transport service”, which I think is consistent with the MO operations concept. Let’s just not say it is at the “transport layer” or call it a “transport protocol”, which I believe has a specific meaning to the world beyond MO.
Scott
From: <mailto:Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int> Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int [ <mailto:Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int> mailto:Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int]
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 1:35 PM
To: Burleigh, Scott C (312B) <mailto:scott.c.burleigh at jpl.nasa.gov> <scott.c.burleigh at jpl.nasa.gov>
Cc: Behal Brigitte <mailto:Brigitte.Behal at cnes.fr> <Brigitte.Behal at cnes.fr>; <mailto:Cesar.Coelho at esa.int> Cesar.Coelho at esa.int; Smith, Danford S. (GSFC-5800) <mailto:danford.s.smith at nasa.gov> <danford.s.smith at nasa.gov>; <mailto:dominik.marszk at esa.int> dominik.marszk at esa.int; Barkley, Erik J (3970) <mailto:erik.j.barkley at jpl.nasa.gov> <erik.j.barkley at jpl.nasa.gov>; <mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int> Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int; <mailto:Mario.Merri at esa.int> Mario.Merri at esa.int; Champsavoir Nicolas <mailto:Nicolas.Champsavoir at cnes.fr> <Nicolas.Champsavoir at cnes.fr>; Shames, Peter M (312B) <mailto:peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov> <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>; <mailto:Philip.Brabbin at esa.int> Philip.Brabbin at esa.int; Sam Cooper ( <mailto:sam at brightascension.com> sam at brightascension.com) <mailto:sam at brightascension.com> <sam at brightascension.com>; <mailto:thomas.gannett at tgannett.net> thomas.gannett at tgannett.net
Subject: RE: CCSDS 524.4-R-1 (MAL Binding to ZMTP) Comments Disposition
Dear all,
All so far published MO books, including the reference architecture, the concept book, the MAL, the COM and other binding books such as SPP refer to what is below MAL as "Transport".
This is also the adopted terminology for http and tcp/ip binding.
I do not think this is wrong. This is a different level of abstraction than OSI and does not contradict that what we refer to as "transport" is itself broken into other layers in OSI terminology. This can be made clear in the book.
While understanding the point from Scott, I would find it a bad idea and extremely confusing, if we now start in one particular book to change it while all other MO books refer to MAL to "Transport" interface.
Seen from MAL, MAL has an API to what is below. This interface is pretty simple: send Message and receive Message. Now depending on what we are binding the MAL to, we are at different layers of OSI.
I suggest to record this and in the five years update of the MAL and in the currently ongoing update of the green book explain this better.
Anything else would break the consistency of the MO standards and all published books.
Regards
Mehran
From: "Burleigh, Scott C (312B)" < <mailto:scott.c.burleigh at jpl.nasa.gov> scott.c.burleigh at jpl.nasa.gov>
To: "Shames, Peter M (312B)" < <mailto:peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov> peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>, "Champsavoir Nicolas" < <mailto:Nicolas.Champsavoir at cnes.fr> Nicolas.Champsavoir at cnes.fr>, " <mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int> Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int" < <mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int> Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int>, "Barkley, Erik J (3970)" < <mailto:erik.j.barkley at jpl.nasa.gov> erik.j.barkley at jpl.nasa.gov>
Cc: " <mailto:thomas.gannett at tgannett.net> thomas.gannett at tgannett.net" < <mailto:thomas.gannett at tgannett.net> thomas.gannett at tgannett.net>, " <mailto:Mario.Merri at esa.int> Mario.Merri at esa.int" < <mailto:Mario.Merri at esa.int> Mario.Merri at esa.int>, Behal Brigitte < <mailto:Brigitte.Behal at cnes.fr> Brigitte.Behal at cnes.fr>, "Smith, Danford S. (GSFC-5800)" < <mailto:danford.s.smith at nasa.gov> danford.s.smith at nasa.gov>, "Sam Cooper ( <mailto:sam at brightascension.com> sam at brightascension.com)" < <mailto:sam at brightascension.com> sam at brightascension.com>, " <mailto:Cesar.Coelho at esa.int> Cesar.Coelho at esa.int" < <mailto:Cesar.Coelho at esa.int> Cesar.Coelho at esa.int>, " <mailto:Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int> Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int" < <mailto:Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int> Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int>, " <mailto:Philip.Brabbin at esa.int> Philip.Brabbin at esa.int" < <mailto:Philip.Brabbin at esa.int> Philip.Brabbin at esa.int>, " <mailto:dominik.marszk at esa.int> dominik.marszk at esa.int" < <mailto:dominik.marszk at esa.int> dominik.marszk at esa.int>
Date: 03/10/2017 22:18
Subject: RE: CCSDS 524.4-R-1 (MAL Binding to ZMTP) Comments Disposition
_____
Hi, Nicolas. To echo Peter, I too favor standards consistency, and unfortunately the standard use of the term “transport” is apparently not the way MO uses that term. There may be some strong argument for adopting terminology in MOIMS that is at variance with the terminology used by the rest of the world, but I’m not yet aware of that argument.
Scott
From: Shames, Peter M (312B)
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 8:32 AM
To: Champsavoir Nicolas < <mailto:Nicolas.Champsavoir at cnes.fr> Nicolas.Champsavoir at cnes.fr>; Burleigh, Scott C (312B) < <mailto:scott.c.burleigh at jpl.nasa.gov> scott.c.burleigh at jpl.nasa.gov>; <mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int> Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int; Barkley, Erik J (3970) < <mailto:erik.j.barkley at jpl.nasa.gov> erik.j.barkley at jpl.nasa.gov>
Cc: <mailto:thomas.gannett at tgannett.net> thomas.gannett at tgannett.net; <mailto:Mario.Merri at esa.int> Mario.Merri at esa.int; Behal Brigitte < <mailto:Brigitte.Behal at cnes.fr> Brigitte.Behal at cnes.fr>; Smith, Danford S. (GSFC-5800) < <mailto:danford.s.smith at nasa.gov> danford.s.smith at nasa.gov>; Sam Cooper ( <mailto:sam at brightascension.com> sam at brightascension.com) < <mailto:sam at brightascension.com> sam at brightascension.com>; <mailto:Cesar.Coelho at esa.int> Cesar.Coelho at esa.int; <mailto:Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int> Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int; <mailto:Philip.Brabbin at esa.int> Philip.Brabbin at esa.int; <mailto:dominik.marszk at esa.int> dominik.marszk at esa.int
Subject: Re: CCSDS 524.4-R-1 (MAL Binding to ZMTP) Comments Disposition
Dear All,
I must agree with Scott that ZMTP, and any other similar data (or message) transfer layer is not a "transport" layer in the common and widely used ISO BRM definition of the term. Yes, we do know that the ISO BRM does not, per se, define a "messaging layer". That said, the functions that are defined in the ISO BRM Session Layer are, I believe, really much like what is defined as "MAL" functions.
I would draw your attention to the following quote from Sec 7.3.3 of the ISO BRM, ISO/IEC 7498-1.
7.3.3 Services provided to the Presentation Layer [by the Session Layer]
7.3.3.1 General
7.3.3.1.1
In connection-mode, the services provided by the Session Layer are described below:
a) session-connection establishment;
b) session-connection release;
c) normal data transfer;
d) expedited data transfer;
e) token management;
f) session-connection synchronization;
g) exception reporting;
h) activity management;
j) typed data transfer; and
k) resynchronization.
I'd suggest looking at this, and at the rest of the ISO BRM definitions, to see if there isn't some natural alignment with the Session Layer definition, and, for that matter, with the Presentation Layer definition as well which relates to various MAL encoding options.
As for "I would personally favor standards consistency over “OSI-correctness”." I think that is exactly where both Scott and I are coming from. I would certainly favor "standards consistency" too. The whole of the Internet uses the terms transport, network, and link layer in the way that the ISO BRM defines them. And the whole of the CCSDS literature also references the ISO BRM and uses these same terms in the way that they are defined in that document. Aside from the inconvenience imposed by correcting this error, which all of us apparently missed, it is difficult to see that there is any benefit to all the rest of our CCSDS standards to allow SM&C to redefine this widely used and understood term for its own narrow purposes. I think that only sows confusion.
Best regards, Peter
From: Champsavoir Nicolas <Nicolas.Champsavoir at cnes.fr>
Date: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 12:40 AM
To: Scott Burleigh <scott.c.burleigh at jpl.nasa.gov>, Peter Shames <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>, Gian Paolo Calzolari <Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int>, Erik Barkley <erik.j.barkley at jpl.nasa.gov>
Cc: Tom Gannett <thomas.gannett at tgannett.net>, Mario Merri <Mario.Merri at esa.int>, Brigitte Behal <Brigitte.Behal at cnes.fr>, Dan Smith <danford.s.smith at nasa.gov>, "Sam Cooper (sam at brightascension.com)" <sam at brightascension.com>, "Cesar.Coelho at esa.int" <Cesar.Coelho at esa.int>, "Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int" <Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int>, "Philip.Brabbin at esa.int" <Philip.Brabbin at esa.int>, "dominik.marszk at esa.int" <dominik.marszk at esa.int>
Subject: RE: CCSDS 524.4-R-1 (MAL Binding to ZMTP) Comments Disposition
Hi Scott.
I understand your concerns. The change was made to be consistent with the other MO books and the terminology of the MAL. In the MO stack, anything below MAL is called "transport". This is not obvious and very unfortunate as it does not align with the OSI layers. If we were to talk in OSI layers, then I fully agree with you that TCP is a transport-layer protocol, and ZMTP is an application-layer protocol. But I would personally favor standards consistency over “OSI-correctness”.
If we were to add a paragraph explaining exactly this at the beginning of the document. Would that solve your issue?
Best regards,
Nicolas
De : Burleigh, Scott C (312B) [ <mailto:scott.c.burleigh at jpl.nasa.gov> mailto:scott.c.burleigh at jpl.nasa.gov]
Envoyé : mardi 3 octobre 2017 01:28
À : Champsavoir Nicolas; Shames, Peter M (312B); <mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int> Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int; Barkley, Erik J (3970)
Cc : <mailto:thomas.gannett at tgannett.net> thomas.gannett at tgannett.net; <mailto:Mario.Merri at esa.int> Mario.Merri at esa.int; Behal Brigitte; Smith, Danford S. (GSFC-5800); Sam Cooper ( <mailto:sam at brightascension.com> sam at brightascension.com); <mailto:Cesar.Coelho at esa.int> Cesar.Coelho at esa.int; <mailto:Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int> Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int; <mailto:Philip.Brabbin at esa.int> Philip.Brabbin at esa.int; <mailto:dominik.marszk at esa.int> dominik.marszk at esa.int
Objet : RE: CCSDS 524.4-R-1 (MAL Binding to ZMTP) Comments Disposition
Hi, Nicolas. Unfortunately the resolution you have proposed to my review condition is exactly the wrong one. TCP is a transport-layer protocol. ZMTP, when it runs on top of TCP, is a TCP application; it is not a transport protocol. ZMTP is not at the Transport Layer; it is at some other layer, maybe a “messaging” sub-layer of the Application Layer, in the same way that the CCSDS Asynchronous Message Service is.
Scott
From: Champsavoir Nicolas [ <mailto:Nicolas.Champsavoir at cnes.fr> mailto:Nicolas.Champsavoir at cnes.fr]
Sent: Monday, October 2, 2017 6:16 AM
To: Shames, Peter M (312B) < <mailto:peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov> peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>; Burleigh, Scott C (312B) < <mailto:scott.c.burleigh at jpl.nasa.gov> scott.c.burleigh at jpl.nasa.gov>; <mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int> Gian.Paolo.Calzolari at esa.int; Barkley, Erik J (3970) < <mailto:erik.j.barkley at jpl.nasa.gov> erik.j.barkley at jpl.nasa.gov>
Cc: <mailto:thomas.gannett at tgannett.net> thomas.gannett at tgannett.net; <mailto:Mario.Merri at esa.int> Mario.Merri at esa.int; Behal Brigitte < <mailto:Brigitte.Behal at cnes.fr> Brigitte.Behal at cnes.fr>; Smith, Danford S. (GSFC-5800) < <mailto:danford.s.smith at nasa.gov> danford.s.smith at nasa.gov>; Sam Cooper ( <mailto:sam at brightascension.com> sam at brightascension.com) < <mailto:sam at brightascension.com> sam at brightascension.com>; <mailto:Cesar.Coelho at esa.int> Cesar.Coelho at esa.int; <mailto:Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int> Mehran.Sarkarati at esa.int; <mailto:Philip.Brabbin at esa.int> Philip.Brabbin at esa.int; <mailto:dominik.marszk at esa.int> dominik.marszk at esa.int
Subject: CCSDS 524.4-R-1 (MAL Binding to ZMTP) Comments Disposition
Dear Peter, Scott, Gian and Erik.
Please find enclosed an excel spreadsheet with a list of proposed actions to address the comments you made on the CCSDS 524.4-R-1 (MAL Binding to ZMTP) document. You will also find enclosed a new version (1.1) of this document that implements the actions listed in the excel spreadsheet.
Could you please confirm that the provided responses properly address your comments, and that the revised version of the document is ready to enter agency review? In case you have comments on the new version, could you please send them to me so that I can address them?
Thank you very much in advance,
Best regards,
Nicolas
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