<span style=" font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif">Oops. I see Miguel
already did it. I apologise for the noise.</span>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f;font-family:sans-serif">From:
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;font-family:sans-serif">David
Evans/esoc/ESA</span>
<br><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f;font-family:sans-serif">To:
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;font-family:sans-serif">sls-mhdc@mailman.ccsds.org</span>
<br><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f;font-family:sans-serif">Date:
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;font-family:sans-serif">26/10/2020
14:18</span>
<br><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f;font-family:sans-serif">Subject:
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;font-family:sans-serif">Fw:
Comments on CCSDS 124, draft of October</span>
<br>
<hr noshade>
<br>
<br><span style=" font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif">Dear working group,</span>
<br>
<br><span style=" font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif">In preparation
for 124 slot in the Autumn "meeting", Miguel has loaded a pending
topics document to the CWE. I have also loaded the latest draft proposal
on which the comments are based.</span>
<br>
<br><span style=" font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif">Hopefully we can
resolve these last few issues together in the meeting. </span>
<br>
<br><span style=" font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif">Best regards,</span>
<br><span style=" font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif">Dave</span>
<br>
<br>
<br><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#800080;font-family:sans-serif">-----
Forwarded by David Evans/esoc/ESA on 26/10/2020 14:14 -----</span>
<br>
<br><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f;font-family:sans-serif">From:
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;font-family:sans-serif">"Miguel
Hernández" <Miguel.Hernandez@uab.cat></span>
<br><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f;font-family:sans-serif">To:
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;font-family:sans-serif">"David
Evans" <David.Evans@esa.int></span>
<br><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f;font-family:sans-serif">Cc:
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;font-family:sans-serif">"Bruno
Mickael" <Mickael.Bruno@cnes.fr></span>
<br><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f;font-family:sans-serif">Date:
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;font-family:sans-serif">26/10/2020
09:58</span>
<br><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f;font-family:sans-serif">Subject:
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;font-family:sans-serif">Re:
Comments on CCSDS 124, draft of October</span>
<br>
<hr noshade>
<br>
<br>
<br><span style=" font-size:12pt">Hi Dave,</span>
<br>
<br><span style=" font-size:12pt">Apologies for the late reply. </span>
<br>
<br><span style=" font-size:12pt">We have managed to study the new changes,
and to propose a few minor considerations. We are still unsure about the
assumptions we can make about the transport layer - we propose to discuss
it in next Monday's meeting, along with the impact in the standardized
algorithm. We also prepared a summary of pending topics that, from our
perspective, ought to be discussed. We uploaded it to the CWE in case it
is of any help regarding that meeting:</span>
<br>
<br><a href="https://cwe.ccsds.org/sls/docs/SLS-MHDC/CWE Private/124.0-B/advances124_spring_to_fall_2020/124x0w4-20201017_pending_topics.pdf"><span style=" font-size:12pt;color:blue"><u>124x0w4-20201017_pending_topics</u></span></a>
<br>
<br><span style=" font-size:12pt">Thank you very much for your time, see
you soon.</span>
<br><span style=" font-size:12pt">--<br>
Miguel Hernández-Cabronero</span><span style=" font-size:12pt;color:blue"><u><br>
</u></span><a href=http://deic.uab.es/%7Emhernandez/ target=_blank><span style=" font-size:12pt;color:blue"><u>http://deic.uab.es/~mhernandez/</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:12pt"><br>
Group on Interactive Coding of Images (GICI)<br>
Department of Information and Communications Engineering (dEIC)<br>
Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona (UAB)</span>
<br>
<br>
<br><span style=" font-size:12pt">On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 7:40 PM <</span><a href=mailto:David.Evans@esa.int><span style=" font-size:12pt;color:blue"><u>David.Evans@esa.int</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:12pt">>
wrote:</span>
<br><span style=" font-size:10pt">Hi Miguel,</span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
<br>
</span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
It has been pointed out that the reference I used for the CCSDS CRCs only
has 32 bits CRC specified (mainly for CFDP). </span><span style=" font-size:12pt"><br>
</span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
We could use the CRC that CCSDS specifies for TM frames. It is specified
in the "TM Space Data Link Protocol" </span><a href=https://public.ccsds.org/Pubs/132x0b2.pdf target=_blank><span style=" font-size:10pt;color:blue"><u>https://public.ccsds.org/Pubs/132x0b2.pdf</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:10pt">
CCSDS 132.0-B-2 section 4.1.6.2 "Frame Error Control Field Encoding
Procedure". I do not feel qualified to specify one so was looking
for something that the CCSDS already uses. </span><span style=" font-size:12pt"><br>
</span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
Best regards,</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> </span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
Dave</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
From: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">"Miguel
Hernández" <</span><a href=mailto:Miguel.Hernandez@uab.cat target=_blank><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:blue"><u>Miguel.Hernandez@uab.cat</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:9pt">></span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
To: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">"David
Evans" <</span><a href=mailto:David.Evans@esa.int target=_blank><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:blue"><u>David.Evans@esa.int</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:9pt">></span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
Cc: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">"Bruno
Mickael" <</span><a href=mailto:Mickael.Bruno@cnes.fr target=_blank><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:blue"><u>Mickael.Bruno@cnes.fr</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:9pt">></span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
Date: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">19/10/2020
18:26</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> </span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
Subject: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">Re:
Comments on CCSDS 124, draft of October</span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
<br>
</span>
<hr noshade><span style=" font-size:12pt"><br>
<br>
<br>
Perfect, Dave, <br>
<br>
Thanks a lot for your prompt response. <br>
<br>
Best, <br>
--<br>
Miguel Hernández-Cabronero</span><span style=" font-size:12pt;color:blue"><u><br>
</u></span><a href=http://deic.uab.es/%7Emhernandez/ target=_blank><span style=" font-size:12pt;color:blue"><u>http://deic.uab.es/~mhernandez/</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:12pt"><br>
Group on Interactive Coding of Images (GICI)<br>
Department of Information and Communications Engineering (dEIC)<br>
Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona (UAB) <br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 6:19 PM <</span><a href=mailto:David.Evans@esa.int target=_blank><span style=" font-size:12pt;color:blue"><u>David.Evans@esa.int</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:12pt">>
wrote: </span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
Hi Miguel,</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> </span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
<br>
HKTM is made up of different types of packets carrying different information.
I have seen that different HKTM packets can share the same counter. Hence
the decompressor can see that a packet went missing but it does not know
which type of HKTM packet it was.</span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
<br>
Payload packets would have a different counter but again there could be
different types and we cannot say if the counter would be unique to one
type. </span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> </span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
<br>
Best regards, <br>
Dave </span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
<br>
From: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">"Miguel
Hernández" <</span><a href=mailto:Miguel.Hernandez@uab.cat target=_blank><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:blue"><u>Miguel.Hernandez@uab.cat</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:9pt">></span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
To: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">"David
Evans" <</span><a href=mailto:David.Evans@esa.int target=_blank><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:blue"><u>David.Evans@esa.int</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:9pt">></span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
Cc: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">"Bruno
Mickael" <</span><a href=mailto:Mickael.Bruno@cnes.fr target=_blank><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:blue"><u>Mickael.Bruno@cnes.fr</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:9pt">></span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
Date: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">19/10/2020
18:10</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> </span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
Subject: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">Re:
Comments on CCSDS 124, draft of October</span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
<br>
</span>
<hr noshade><span style=" font-size:12pt"><br>
<br>
<br>
Hi again Dave,<br>
<br>
Just a quick question to help me understand your proposal. When you say<br>
<br>
"""The source sequence counter in the packet headers is
not always specific for a packet type i.e. not every housekeeping packet
type will have a unique counter. So what does this mean? Basically even
if you know R_t it does help you."""<br>
<br>
Do you mean that </span>
<ul>
<li><span style=" font-size:12pt">both HK/TM and payload packets are sent
sharing the same counter sequence, </span>
<li><span style=" font-size:12pt">that the number of payload packets between
HK/TM packets is not known, </span>
<li><span style=" font-size:12pt">and therefore any lost packet can be
either HK/TM or payload, without a way of telling those apart?</span></ul><span style=" font-size:12pt">Thanks
a lot, <br>
--<br>
Miguel Hernández-Cabronero</span><span style=" font-size:12pt;color:blue"><u><br>
</u></span><a href=http://deic.uab.es/%7Emhernandez/ target=_blank><span style=" font-size:12pt;color:blue"><u>http://deic.uab.es/~mhernandez/</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:12pt"><br>
Group on Interactive Coding of Images (GICI)<br>
Department of Information and Communications Engineering (dEIC)<br>
Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona (UAB) <br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:46 PM <</span><a href=mailto:David.Evans@esa.int target=_blank><span style=" font-size:12pt;color:blue"><u>David.Evans@esa.int</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:12pt">>
wrote: </span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
Hi Miguel, thanks, but when is the next meeting? I have not heard anything....
best regards, Dave</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> <br>
<br>
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
<br>
<br>
From: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">"Miguel
Hernández" <</span><a href=mailto:Miguel.Hernandez@uab.cat target=_blank><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:blue"><u>Miguel.Hernandez@uab.cat</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:9pt">></span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
To: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">"David
Evans" <</span><a href=mailto:David.Evans@esa.int target=_blank><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:blue"><u>David.Evans@esa.int</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:9pt">></span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
Cc: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">"Bruno
Mickael" <</span><a href=mailto:Mickael.Bruno@cnes.fr target=_blank><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:blue"><u>Mickael.Bruno@cnes.fr</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:9pt">></span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
Date: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">19/10/2020
12:44</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> </span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
Subject: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">Re:
Comments on CCSDS 124, draft of October</span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
<br>
</span>
<hr noshade><span style=" font-size:12pt"><br>
<br>
<br>
Thank you Dave, <br>
<br>
I will look at this as soon as I possibly can. I can't promise we will
be able to have another iteration by email before the next meeting, but
I will do my best to have a response to all the points by then. I will
now send the email we discussed to the WG, so they too have the opportunity
to look at our iterations (including your last response and draft). <br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
--<br>
Miguel Hernández-Cabronero</span><span style=" font-size:12pt;color:blue"><u><br>
</u></span><a href=http://deic.uab.es/%7Emhernandez/ target=_blank><span style=" font-size:12pt;color:blue"><u>http://deic.uab.es/~mhernandez/</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:12pt"><br>
Group on Interactive Coding of Images (GICI)<br>
Department of Information and Communications Engineering (dEIC)<br>
Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona (UAB) <br>
<br>
<br>
On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 5:03 PM <</span><a href=mailto:David.Evans@esa.int target=_blank><span style=" font-size:12pt;color:blue"><u>David.Evans@esa.int</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:12pt">>
wrote: </span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
Hi Miguel,</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> </span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
<br>
I had some time again today to have a look at this again.There is a problem
even for the main case of CCSDS packets that I had not realised before.
The source sequence counter in the packet headers is not always specific
for a packet type i.e. not every housekeeping packet type will have a unique
counter. So what does this mean? Basically even if you know R_t it does
help you. So there are two choices I can think of</span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
1) Implement a special counter for each packet type so it can be checked
against R_t. </span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> </span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
2) Send a checksum in the clear that ran on the corresponding uncompressed
packet so we can say if it correct or not after decompression.</span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
<br>
Looking at this today there are many advantages for 2) compared to 1)</span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
- it covers more failure cases than packet loss e.g. bit flip during transport
or storage.</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> </span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
- it provides more confidence in the result which is used in the next decompression</span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
- it makes the ground processing easier (if the checksum fails then you
simply have to move to getting a mask and/or reference packet in the future
and work backwards, end of story).</span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
- it allows the compression to continue when there was no mask update in
the missing packet.. This is a common case and a R_t check would fail it
when there was no need to. </span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
- we can remove the sentence where we say we leave data integrity with
the transport layer.</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> </span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
- we no longer have to send R_t in a 3 bit field. The decoder only needs
to know if R_t = 0 or not as this influences the decoding path. This also
solves one of the issues we had below.</span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
<br>
Of course we also have to calculate and send an extra 16 bits field but
there are very fast CRC algos available in CCSDS already and I think this
use of the extra bits has more value than just sending counters. Counters
also have their problems - how big would they have to be to avoid wrap
around for example. <br>
<br>
I updated the standard again with this solution and the remaining issues
are mostly solved - will it is a proposal on how to solve them. Could you
have a look please and tell me what you think.</span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
<br>
Best regards,</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> </span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
Dave</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> </span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"><br>
<br>
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">David
Evans/esoc/ESA</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> </span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
To: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">"Miguel
Hernández" <</span><a href=mailto:Miguel.Hernandez@uab.cat target=_blank><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:blue"><u>Miguel.Hernandez@uab.cat</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:9pt">></span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
Cc: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">"Bruno
Mickael" <</span><a href=mailto:Mickael.Bruno@cnes.fr target=_blank><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:blue"><u>Mickael.Bruno@cnes.fr</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:9pt">></span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
Date: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">17/10/2020
12:58</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> </span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
Subject: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">Re:
Comments on CCSDS 124, draft of October</span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
<br>
</span>
<hr noshade><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
<br>
Hi Miguel.</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> </span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
<br>
Great comments. I have answered all - attached and made the obvious changes
to the standard.</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> </span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
<br>
There are a still a couple of things to discuss though</span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
1) Handling of nt=0 <br>
2) what to write in the robustness field and initialisation <br>
3) how to handle the desired file storage idea (and I have proposed to
expand it so we can do it on-board as well). <br>
<br>
We could try another iteration by email but maybe these ones need a discussion?
Let's try another iteration by email and then we can see.</span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
<br>
Best regards,</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> </span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
Dave</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> </span><span style=" font-size:10pt"><br>
<br>
[attachment "124x0w4-20201017_a.docx" deleted by David Evans/esoc/ESA]
[attachment "comments_124draft_202010 DJE.pdf" deleted by David
Evans/esoc/ESA] </span><span style=" font-size:12pt"><br>
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">"Miguel
Hernández" <</span><a href=mailto:Miguel.Hernandez@uab.cat target=_blank><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:blue"><u>Miguel.Hernandez@uab.cat</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:9pt">></span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
To: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">"David
Evans" <</span><a href=mailto:David.Evans@esa.int target=_blank><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:blue"><u>David.Evans@esa.int</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:9pt">></span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
Cc: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">"Bruno
Mickael" <</span><a href=mailto:Mickael.Bruno@cnes.fr target=_blank><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:blue"><u>Mickael.Bruno@cnes.fr</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:9pt">></span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
</span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
Date: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">16/10/2020
17:27</span><span style=" font-size:12pt"> </span><span style=" font-size:9pt;color:#5f5f5f"><br>
Subject: </span><span style=" font-size:9pt">Re:
Comments on CCSDS 124, draft of October</span><span style=" font-size:12pt">
<br>
</span>
<hr noshade><span style=" font-size:12pt"><br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Dave, <br>
<br>
I hope everything is still fine over there. <br>
<br>
We have been working on the latest draft you shared, as well as on your
response to our latest draft (very much appreciated!). <br>
<br>
We have prepared another shorter report with some additional comments and
suggestions, you can find it attached. Since the next CCSDS meeting will
be held soon, we think it is a good time to share our advances with the
rest of the working group. To this effect, I have added a new subfolder
called "</span><a href="https://cwe.ccsds.org/sls/docs/Forms/AllItems.aspx?RootFolder=%2Fsls%2Fdocs%2FSLS%2DMHDC%2FCWE%20Private%2F124%2E0%2DB%2Fadvances124%5Fspring%5Fto%5Ffall%5F2020&FolderCTID=0x012000439B56FF51847E41B5728F9730D7B55F&View=%7BAE8FB44C%2DE80A%2D42CF%2D8558%2DFB495ABB675F%7D" target=_blank><span style=" font-size:12pt;color:blue"><u>advances124_spring_to_fall_2020</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:12pt">"
under the 124.0-B folder, in the private CWE. If you are OK with it, and
unless you prefer to do it yourself, I will contact the working group next
week so that they know about our discussion. Needless to say, feel free
to add any contents to the subfolder (or send them to me) as you deem appropriate.
<br>
<br>
Thanks again for your time and help, and see you soon. <br>
--<br>
Miguel Hernández-Cabronero</span><span style=" font-size:12pt;color:blue"><u><br>
</u></span><a href=http://deic.uab.es/%7Emhernandez/ target=_blank><span style=" font-size:12pt;color:blue"><u>http://deic.uab.es/~mhernandez/</u></span></a><span style=" font-size:12pt"><br>
Group on Interactive Coding of Images (GICI)<br>
Department of Information and Communications Engineering (dEIC)<br>
Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona (UAB) </span><span style=" font-size:2pt"><br>
<br>
[attachment "comments_124draft_202010.pdf" deleted by David Evans/esoc/ESA]
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<br><PRE>This message is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. It may contain proprietary information and/or
protected content. Any unauthorised disclosure, use, retention or dissemination is prohibited. If you have received
this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately. ESA applies appropriate organisational measures to protect
personal data, in case of data privacy queries, please contact the ESA Data Protection Officer (dpo@esa.int).
</PRE>