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excellent discussion.
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<div class="">Jeremy, could you and Walt compare notes and lets pull together an updated draft so we can keep some configuration control?<br class="">
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*****</div>
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Rodney Grubbs </div>
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NASA Imagery Experts Program Manager</div>
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MSFC EO50</div>
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256-544-4582 </div>
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256-603-3270 (cellular, text message capable)</div>
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Follow me on Twitter @rod4dtv</div>
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<div class="">On Dec 14, 2016, at 7:01 AM, Scott, Keith L. <<a href="mailto:kscott@mitre.org" class="">kscott@mitre.org</a>> wrote:</div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Right, I don’t think the book actually mentioned 10% BER, it came up in the discussion, and I now suspect the real intent was “something like 40-50% PLR”. For LTP, I agree with Scott: let’s pick a number that LTP can
use to set the maximum number of retransmissions in the pessimistic case and leave it at that. If it turns out that for some reason we need to have / use better knowledge later, let’s do that optimization when someone comes up with a real need so we can solve
a known, well-defined problem instead of a speculative one!<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""> --keith<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<b class=""><span style="" class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="" class="">"<a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a>" <<a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 6:38 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Scott Burleigh <<a href="mailto:scott.c.burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">scott.c.burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>, Keith Scott <<a href="mailto:kscott@mitre.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">kscott@mitre.org</a>>,
"<a href="mailto:rodney.grubbs@nasa.gov" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">rodney.grubbs@nasa.gov</a>" <<a href="mailto:rodney.grubbs@nasa.gov" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">rodney.grubbs@nasa.gov</a>>,
"<a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a>" <<a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"<a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>RE: Questions on Video Streaming Green Book<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Coming to the point of the 10% BER I think the main objection that a reader (i.e., a CESG member for the review of the green book) may give is that with 10% BER the probability of losing 100 bytes
packet is almost 1. It means that no matter how many times you are going to retransmit the lost packet, it will be never received (or with a very low probability almost 0). Obviously this is from a probabilistic standpoint; if you are lucky enough to pick
the fortunate “realization” then you can make it.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">In the last tests Carlo did (paper at the ASMS 2016 conference), performance were tested with packet error rate up to 30%. In this case instead we have a packet error rate around 99.999…99999%
(and I stop here with the 9<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">J</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">). Practically speaking,
having in mind the target of CCSDS TM standards it should be very difficult to have BER=10%, but should be rather below 1e-4.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Tomaso</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(105, 105, 105);" class="">————————————————————————</span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</span><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(105, 105, 105);" class="">Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(105, 105, 105);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(DLR)</span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(105, 105, 105);" class="">German Aerospace Center</span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(105, 105, 105);" class="">Institute of Communications and Navigation | Satellite Networks | Oberpfaffenhofen | 82234 Wessling | Germany</span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<b class=""><span lang="IT" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(105, 105, 105);" class="">Tomaso de Cola, Ph.D.</span></b><span lang="IT" style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(105, 105, 105);" class="">Telefon +49 8153 28-2156 | Telefax +49 8153 28-2844 |</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><a href="mailto:tomaso.decola@dlr.de" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;" class="">tomaso.decola@dlr.de</span></a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><a href="http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/san" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: blue;" class="">http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/san</span></a></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>SIS-MIA [<a href="mailto:sis-mia-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:sis-mia-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Burleigh, Scott C (312B)<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday, December 13, 2016 7:06 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Scott, Keith L.; Grubbs, Rodney P. (MSFC-EO50); Mayer, Jeremy<br class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Sis-mia] Questions on Video Streaming Green Book</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Keith, a couple more thoughts on these questions:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">On 5.4: as you say, we probably don’t want to get into this topic in this Green Book, but I think I would say that simplex links at the layer underlying the convergence layer (like the LTP link
service layer) are probably no problem for the IMC spanning tree, so long as every node is able to both send and receive at the convergence layer somehow or other. They might even be okay at the convergence layer itself, so long as the node can both send
and receive bundles, though I’m less confident there. But I can’t think of any way that a node that is truly simplex can participate in IMC.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">On 6.1: I think Leigh did a lot of stress-testing LTP at 5% BER but I can’t recall whether or not he ever got any results at 10% BER. On paper it ought to work: you lose an awful lot of segments,
but if you set maxber high enough, you keep on retransmitting checkpoints and reports until eventually everything gets through. Carlo Caini did some testing at 40% packet loss rate, which worked, so I think some optimism makes sense. You get a pretty low
throughput rate, though.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Scott</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>SIS-MIA [<a href="mailto:sis-mia-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:sis-mia-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Scott, Keith L.<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, December 12, 2016 9:49 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Grubbs, Rodney P. (MSFC-EO50) <<a href="mailto:rodney.grubbs@nasa.gov" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">rodney.grubbs@nasa.gov</a>>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a><br class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[Sis-mia] Questions on Video Streaming Green Book</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Hey,</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Attached are some light edits and some questions about the Bundle Streaming Requirements Green Book (the comments in the markup). Since CESG review is the only thing the Green Book goes through, can I get your feedback
on the commented items before I submit to CESG?</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Summary of questions:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">5.2: The DLR transparent gateway – encapsulates UDP datagrams and is otherwise agnostic to the video protocol running over UDP, yes?</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">5.2.1: the comment in the second paragraph – is the addition correct or is it the gateway timestamp that’s being used (or something else)?</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">5.2.2: where you say that MPEG-TS and BP are doing some of the same things (robustness for error-recovery and interleaving) – can you say a bit more on the implications of that?</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">5.2.2: BP does interleaving? I’m thinking ‘traditional’ interleaving where data items are assigned to a matrix row-by-row and read out column-by-column once the matrix is full. I think you’re thinking of something else
– can you tell me what it is you mean?</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">5.4: probably a question for later.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">6.1: 10% BER w/ what I assume is LTP red – how does that EVER succeed? Chances of getting 100 Bytes through correctly at 10% BER are really low.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""> --keith</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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