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Yes, just to make sure we are all working from the same draft. I don’t anticipate this to take more than a day or two. <br class="">
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*****</div>
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Rodney Grubbs </div>
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NASA Imagery Experts Program Manager</div>
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MSFC EO50</div>
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256-544-4582 </div>
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256-603-3270 (cellular, text message capable)</div>
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Follow me on Twitter @rod4dtv</div>
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<div class="">On Dec 14, 2016, at 9:29 AM, Scott, Keith L. <<a href="mailto:kscott@mitre.org" class="">kscott@mitre.org</a>> wrote:</div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">OK, so to be clear you’re pulling this back into the WG to produce an updated draft and I should wait for that before forwarding out of the SIS area to the CESG?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class=""> --keith<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class="">"Grubbs, Rodney P. (MSFC-EO50)" <<a href="mailto:rodney.grubbs@nasa.gov" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rodney.grubbs@nasa.gov</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 9:35 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Keith Scott <<a href="mailto:kscott@mitre.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">kscott@mitre.org</a>>, "Mayer, Jeremy P. (JSC-OT/ESA)[EUROPEAN SPACE AGENCY]" <<a href="mailto:jeremy.mayer@dlr.de" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jeremy.mayer@dlr.de</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"<a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a>" <<a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a>>,
Scott Burleigh <<a href="mailto:scott.c.burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">scott.c.burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>, "<a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</a>"
<<a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: Questions on Video Streaming Green Book<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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excellent discussion.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Jeremy, could you and Walt compare notes and lets pull together an updated draft so we can keep some configuration control?<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">*****<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">Rodney Grubbs <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">NASA Imagery Experts Program Manager<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">MSFC EO50<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">256-544-4582 <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">256-603-3270 (cellular, text message capable)<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">Follow me on Twitter @rod4dtv<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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On Dec 14, 2016, at 7:01 AM, Scott, Keith L. <<a href="mailto:kscott@mitre.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">kscott@mitre.org</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">Right, I don’t think the book actually mentioned 10% BER, it came up in the discussion, and I now suspect the real intent was “something like 40-50% PLR”. For LTP, I agree with Scott: let’s pick
a number that LTP can use to set the maximum number of retransmissions in the pessimistic case and leave it at that. If it turns out that for some reason we need to have / use better knowledge later, let’s do that optimization when someone comes up with a
real need so we can solve a known, well-defined problem instead of a speculative one!</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class=""> --keith</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class="">From:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class="">"<a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" class="">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</span></a>"
<<a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" class="">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</span></a>><br class="">
<b class="">Date:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 6:38 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Scott Burleigh <<a href="mailto:scott.c.burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" class="">scott.c.burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov</span></a>>,
Keith Scott <<a href="mailto:kscott@mitre.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" class="">kscott@mitre.org</span></a>>, "<a href="mailto:rodney.grubbs@nasa.gov" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" class="">rodney.grubbs@nasa.gov</span></a>"
<<a href="mailto:rodney.grubbs@nasa.gov" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" class="">rodney.grubbs@nasa.gov</span></a>>, "<a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" class="">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</span></a>"
<<a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" class="">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</span></a>><br class="">
<b class="">Cc:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"<a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" class="">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a>" <<a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" class="">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>RE: Questions on Video Streaming Green Book<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Coming to the point of the 10% BER I think the main objection that a reader (i.e., a CESG member for the review of the green book) may give is that with 10% BER the probability
of losing 100 bytes packet is almost 1. It means that no matter how many times you are going to retransmit the lost packet, it will be never received (or with a very low probability almost 0). Obviously this is from a probabilistic standpoint; if you are lucky
enough to pick the fortunate “realization” then you can make it.</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">In the last tests Carlo did (paper at the ASMS 2016 conference), performance were tested with packet error rate up to 30%. In this case instead we have a packet error rate
around 99.999…99999% (and I stop here with the 9<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">J</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">).
Practically speaking, having in mind the target of CCSDS TM standards it should be very difficult to have BER=10%, but should be rather below 1e-4.</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Tomaso</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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</span><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(105, 105, 105);" class="">Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(105, 105, 105);" class=""> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(105, 105, 105);" class="">(DLR)</span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class="">
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(105, 105, 105);" class="">German Aerospace Center</span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class="">
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(105, 105, 105);" class="">Institute of Communications and Navigation | Satellite Networks | Oberpfaffenhofen | 82234 Wessling | Germany</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<b class=""><span lang="IT" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(105, 105, 105);" class="">Tomaso de Cola, Ph.D.</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span lang="IT" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></span><span lang="IT" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class="">
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(105, 105, 105);" class="">Telefon +49 8153 28-2156 | Telefax +49 8153 28-2844 |</span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><a href="mailto:tomaso.decola@dlr.de" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;" class="">tomaso.decola@dlr.de</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><a href="http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/san" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/san</a></span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;" class="">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;" class=""> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;" class="">SIS-MIA
[<a href="mailto:sis-mia-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" class="">mailto:sis-mia-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Burleigh, Scott C (312B)<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday, December 13, 2016 7:06 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Scott, Keith L.; Grubbs, Rodney P. (MSFC-EO50); Mayer, Jeremy<br class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" class="">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Sis-mia] Questions on Video Streaming Green Book</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Keith, a couple more thoughts on these questions:</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">On 5.4: as you say, we probably don’t want to get into this topic in this Green Book, but I think I would say that simplex links at the layer underlying the convergence layer
(like the LTP link service layer) are probably no problem for the IMC spanning tree, so long as every node is able to both send and receive at the convergence layer somehow or other. They might even be okay at the convergence layer itself, so long as the
node can both send and receive bundles, though I’m less confident there. But I can’t think of any way that a node that is truly simplex can participate in IMC.</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">On 6.1: I think Leigh did a lot of stress-testing LTP at 5% BER but I can’t recall whether or not he ever got any results at 10% BER. On paper it ought to work: you lose
an awful lot of segments, but if you set maxber high enough, you keep on retransmitting checkpoints and reports until eventually everything gets through. Carlo Caini did some testing at 40% packet loss rate, which worked, so I think some optimism makes sense.
You get a pretty low throughput rate, though.</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Scott</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class=""> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">SIS-MIA
[<a href="mailto:sis-mia-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" class="">mailto:sis-mia-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Scott, Keith L.<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, December 12, 2016 9:49 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Grubbs, Rodney P. (MSFC-EO50) <<a href="mailto:rodney.grubbs@nasa.gov" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" class="">rodney.grubbs@nasa.gov</span></a>>;<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" class="">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</span></a><br class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" class="">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[Sis-mia] Questions on Video Streaming Green Book</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">Hey,</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">Attached are some light edits and some questions about the Bundle Streaming Requirements Green Book (the comments in the markup). Since CESG review is the only thing the Green Book goes through,
can I get your feedback on the commented items before I submit to CESG?</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">Summary of questions:</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">5.2: The DLR transparent gateway – encapsulates UDP datagrams and is otherwise agnostic to the video protocol running over UDP, yes?</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">5.2.1: the comment in the second paragraph – is the addition correct or is it the gateway timestamp that’s being used (or something else)?</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">5.2.2: where you say that MPEG-TS and BP are doing some of the same things (robustness for error-recovery and interleaving) – can you say a bit more on the implications of that?</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">5.2.2: BP does interleaving? I’m thinking ‘traditional’ interleaving where data items are assigned to a matrix row-by-row and read out column-by-column once the matrix is full. I think you’re thinking
of something else – can you tell me what it is you mean?</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">5.4: probably a question for later.</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">6.1: 10% BER w/ what I assume is LTP red – how does that EVER succeed? Chances of getting 100 Bytes through correctly at 10% BER are really low.</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class=""> --keith</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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