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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A">I suppose we should, at some point, specify the bindings of CFDP to various underlying layers. CFDP/BP, CFDP/LTP, CFDP/Encap (done), etc. Maybe that’s already
in the CSS ARD…? I doubt it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A">If it were me I’d jam all these into one book (pink sheet the CFDP-over-Encap book?) and later consider stapling them as annexes to the back of the CFDP book.
I don’t really see that it’s that hard (though I suppose it does require standardization) – it’s certainly not easy to get too excited about…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"> --keith<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int [mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 25, 2014 3:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Burleigh, Scott C (312B)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Scott, Keith L.; sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org; sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Sis-dtn] RE: Quick comments: [CESG] SIS Resolution to submit Voice and Audio Communications Red Book for processing and CESG Polling for Agency Review (SIS-R-2014-11-003)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">I think it is up to SIS Area to answer your question, Scott.<br>
722.1 is a Magenta for CFDP over encapsulation service.<br>
Another magenta could explain CFDP over DTN (both BP and LTP?).<br>
As they are thin books, it may also be possible to write a "CFDP over everything" Magenta Book including one section for option (initially over Encapsulation and over DTN, later on more options can be added as/when required).
<br>
I threw my stone in the pond. Up to SIS to meditate.<br>
Thank you for the nice discussion, Scott!<br>
<br>
Ciao<br>
<br>
Gian Paolo<br>
<br>
PS It is amazing that everything started from a comment on a small part of a non normative section of a document that is neither DTN nor CFDP. :o)<br>
<br>
<br>
<span style="color:#990099">-----"Burleigh, Scott C (312B)" <<a href="mailto:scott.c.burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov">scott.c.burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov</a>> wrote: -----</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">To: "<a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int">Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</a>" <<a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int">Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</a>><br>
From: "Burleigh, Scott C (312B)" <<a href="mailto:scott.c.burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov">scott.c.burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
Date: 25/11/2014 20:49<br>
Cc: Keith Scott <<a href="mailto:kscott@mitre.org">kscott@mitre.org</a>>, "<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>, "<a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</a>"
<<a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
Subject: RE: [Sis-dtn] RE: Quick comments: [CESG] SIS Resolution to submit Voice and Audio Communications Red Book for processing and CESG Polling for Agency Review (SIS-R-2014-11-003)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Well, that is a good point; if omitting this sort of deployment guidance is costing us flight opportunities then we need to provide it. It still doesn’t seem like the CFDP Blue
Book is the right place for that, though. Even though it would mean a proliferation of documents and some additional project management, might it be good to start writing Magenta Books for the various CFDP UT-layer adaptations?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Scott</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int">Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</a> [<a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int">mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 25, 2014 11:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Burleigh, Scott C (312B)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Keith Scott; <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>;
<a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Sis-dtn] RE: Quick comments: [CESG] SIS Resolution to submit Voice and Audio Communications Red Book for processing and CESG Polling for Agency Review (SIS-R-2014-11-003)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Scott, <br>
I buy completely one of the two comments you offer (or at least I guess so).<br>
<br>
When I reworded that paragraph and I wrote the sentence "</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">Class 1 is best used over reliable DTN "UT layer" stack while Class 2 can be used also over unreliable DTN "UT layer"
stack.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">" I just wanted to preserve what was in brackets in the two bullets.<br>
Clearly writing:<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">CFDP supports the following classes.
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">– Class 1—Unreliable CFDP Transfer;</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">– Class 2—Reliable CFDP Transfer;</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">Each of the classes can be supported over the DTN Bundle Protocol (reference [19]).</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">Moreover, both classes can also be operated over the Encapsulation Service (reference [722.1-M-1]).</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">
<br>
is a form that I like a lot and it is more appropriate to show the most "appreciated" CFDP supporters.<br>
This is assuming that you do not want to keep the remarks in parenthesis in the two bullets.<br>
<br>
About the UT layer options, I think we may not need to be exhaustive but any missing link will cost us something.<br>
With the original formulation of the UT Layer we discovered that many implementers were not sure on how to implement CFDP over space packets.<br>
I can ensure that this costed "a fortune" for the missed promotion of CFDP usage till we acknowledged that we missed a link between CFPD and the Space Data Link Protocols (or at least that link was ambiguous) and we wrote the CFDP Magenta Book 722.1-M.<br>
IMO, Leaving in the dark whether/how CFDP can operate over BP pr LTP can be quite negative for DTN promotion and may vrise issues about different implementations and unclear global CCSDS architecture.<br>
<br>
That's my cent.<br>
<br>
Ciao<br>
<br>
Gian Paolo<br>
<br>
<span style="color:#990099">-----"Burleigh, Scott C (312B)" <</span></span><a href="mailto:scott.c.burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">scott.c.burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#990099">>
wrote: -----</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">To: "</span><a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">"
<</span><a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">>, "Scott, Keith L." <</span><a href="mailto:kscott@mitre.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">kscott@mitre.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">><br>
From: "Burleigh, Scott C (312B)" <</span><a href="mailto:scott.c.burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">scott.c.burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">><br>
Date: 25/11/2014 20:04<br>
Cc: "</span><a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">" <</span><a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">>,
"</span><a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">" <</span><a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">><br>
Subject: RE: [Sis-dtn] RE: Quick comments: [CESG] SIS Resolution to submit Voice and Audio Communications Red Book for processing and CESG Polling for Agency Review (SIS-R-2014-11-003)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I have two comments to offer:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I don’t think we want to bias mission concepts by saying that CFDP Class 1 is “best” used over a reliable UT layer such as a reliable DTN stack. Certainly it
<b><i>may</i></b> be used over such a stack, but for some applications it may be desirable to send files in a truly unidirectional, unacknowledged manner where data losses are not repaired, such as Class 1 over TM.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We don’t attempt to enumerate UT-layer options in the CFDP Blue Book, because the range of options is unlimited, by design. The only normative language in section 3.4 pertains
to the required capabilities; there are no prescribed UT-layer protocol options. In the informative language (“NOTES”) of section 3.4 we do mention that CCSDS Path or Packet service could be used, but of course many other stacks are also possible. So I don’t
think we need to note in the CFDP Blue Book that LTP is a possible UT-layer protocol. I’m not convinced that this really needs to be stated anywhere at all, but I wouldn’t oppose noting it in one of the CFDP Green Books if people felt it was truly necessary.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Scott</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
</span><a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> [</span><a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b></span><a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 25, 2014 5:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Scott, Keith L.<br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">;
</span><a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Sis-dtn] RE: Quick comments: [CESG] SIS Resolution to submit Voice and Audio Communications Red Book for processing and CESG Polling for Agency Review (SIS-R-2014-11-003)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Thank you, Keith.</span>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">A few more considerations here below.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
For (non normative) section 2.1 I do concur to </span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E"> leave it to the mission designer to decide exactly what CFDP runs over (BP, Encapsulation, …)</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">So, after a further thought (due to your comment :o) it may be the best is to reword the paragraph to something like the (improvable) text below.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">CFDP supports the following classes.
</span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">– Class 1—Unreliable CFDP Transfer;</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">– Class 2—Reliable CFDP Transfer;</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">Each of the classes can be supported over the DTN Bundle Protocol (reference [19]).</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">Class 1 is best used over reliable DTN "UT layer" stack while Class 2 can be used also over unreliable DTN "UT layer" stack.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">Morevore, both classes can also be operated over the Encapsulation Service (reference [722.1-M-1]).</span>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">For Clause 4.2.2.2.2 I wait for a consolidated proposal. However keep in mind that also other data link protocols offer VCA service.</span>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">For Clause 4.3.5 , I always thought that CFDP directly over LTP was not allowed.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">If this is not the case, this should be reflected first in the relevant documents (e.g. CFDP section
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">3.4 SERVICES REQUIRED OF THE UNDERLYING COMMUNICATION SYSTEM</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">?).</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Even if the text is in the "e.g." part, we shall not extend standards by making comments in other books. So I definitively agree in making a NOTE (I guess that avoiding "e.g." in normative should
be a good practice though I cannot declare myself innocent in this respect).</span>
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<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Regards</span> <br>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Gian Paolo</span>
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<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F">From: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"Scott, Keith L." <</span><a href="mailto:kscott@mitre.org"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">kscott@mitre.org</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">></span>
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<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F">To: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"</span><a href="mailto:osvaldo.peinado@dlr.de"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">osvaldo.peinado@dlr.de</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"
<</span><a href="mailto:osvaldo.peinado@dlr.de"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">osvaldo.peinado@dlr.de</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">>, "</span><a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"
<</span><a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">>,
</span><br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F">Cc: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"</span><a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"
<</span><a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">>, "</span><a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"
<</span><a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">></span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F">Date: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">25/11/2014 13:39</span>
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<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F">Subject: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">RE: Quick comments: [CESG] SIS Resolution to submit Voice and Audio Communications Red Book for
processing and CESG Polling for Agency Review (SIS-R-2014-11-003)</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E">I’m pulling in the MIA and DTN lists here.</span>
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<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E"> </span>
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<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#37605E">Ø </span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E">My responses to some of Gian Paolo’s comments inline below.</span>
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<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E"> </span>
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<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E"> --keith</span>
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<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E"> </span>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
</span><a href="mailto:osvaldo.peinado@dlr.de"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">osvaldo.peinado@dlr.de</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> [</span><a href="mailto:osvaldo.peinado@dlr.de"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">mailto:osvaldo.peinado@dlr.de</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">]
<b><br>
Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 25, 2014 5:36 AM<b><br>
To:</b> </span><a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">; Scott, Keith L.<b><br>
Cc:</b> </span><a href="mailto:tomg@aiaa.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">tomg@aiaa.org</span></a><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><br>
Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> AW: Quick comments: [CESG] SIS Resolution to submit Voice and Audio Communications Red Book for processing and CESG Polling for Agency Review (SIS-R-2014-11-003)</span>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#004080">Hi Gian Paolo,</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#004080">Thank you very much for your inputs. The DTN part was written by the DTN group, but I will check it with them.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#004080">Thanks also for all the others recommendations, I will fix/check all of them.</span>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#004080">Best Regards</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#004080">Osvaldo</span>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#004080"> </span>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#004080"> </span>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Von:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
</span><a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> [</span><a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">]
<b><br>
Gesendet:</b> Montag, 24. November 2014 17:30<b><br>
An:</b> Scott, Keith L.; Peinado, Osvaldo Luis<b><br>
Cc:</b> Tom Gannett<b><br>
Betreff:</b> Quick comments: [CESG] SIS Resolution to submit Voice and Audio Communications Red Book for processing and CESG Polling for Agency Review (SIS-R-2014-11-003)</span>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Keith, Osvaldo <br>
here below a few preliminary quick comments.</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<br>
You may want to consider them before CESG poll starts.</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
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Regards</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
Gian Paolo</span> <br>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
In section 2.1 I would reword this sentence from:</span> <br>
CFDP supports two classes. Each of the classes can be supported over the DTN Bundle Protocol (reference [19]) and DTN Licklider Transport Protocol (LTP) (reference [18]).
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
To e.g.:</span> <br>
CFDP supports two classes. Each of the classes can be supported over the DTN Bundle Protocol (reference [19]). DTN may eventually operate over the Licklider Transport Protocol (LTP) (reference [18]).
<br>
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E"> </span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#37605E">Ø </span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E">I think the question here is how we think voice might be layered (specifically, if we think voice might
run DIRECTLY over LTP or not). From the fact that CFDP seems to be the important bit here, we might say something like:</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E"> </span>
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<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#37605E">§ </span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:#37605E"> </span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E">CFDP supports the following classes, both of which
can be supported by the DTN Bundle Protocol (reference [19]).</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E"> </span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#37605E">Ø </span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E">And leave it to the mission designer to decide exactly what CFDP runs over (BP, Encapsulation, …)</span>
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<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E"> </span>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
Is the terminology <</span>DTN Bundle Protocol <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
>, <</span>DTN Licklider Transport Protocol<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">> correct?</span>
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<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E"> </span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#37605E">Ø </span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E">I hadn’t really thought about it too much, but I think this terminology is pretty good (though the reference
to LTP was removed in my suggested text above). DTN is the label for ‘the stack’ and Bundle Protocol identifies the particular protocol. We could say something like ‘Bundle Protocol for CCSDS’ (the name of the BP for CCSDS Book) but I think the context,
coupled with the reference, make it clear what we’re talking about.</span> <br>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
Clause 4.2.2.2.2 </span>Advanced Orbiting Systems (AOS) Virtual Channel Access (VCA), AOS [24] Bitstream, and AOS [24] Insert services should be used to transmit voice and audio data.
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
I think that this clause should be reworded to be clearer to e.g.</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<br>
The following services of AOS [24] should be used to transmit voice and audio data: Virtual Channell Access (VCA), Bitstream, and Insert.</span>
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<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#37605E">Ø </span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E">I might have said something like</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#37605E">o </span>
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E">Voice and audio data should be transferred using
</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:red">(one or more of ???)
</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E">the following services: Advanced Orbiting Systems (AOS, [24]) Virtual Channel Access (VCA), AOS Bitstream Service, and AOS Insert.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#37605E">o </span>
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E">Not sure about ‘using one of the following’ vs. ‘using the following’ – if we’re thinking these types of transmissions are typically single-hop then ‘one of…’ will work. If a single
voice transmission might use multiple transmission mechanisms then ‘using the following’ (or using one or more of the following) is probably better.</span>
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<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E"> </span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
Note also that the VCA Service is also offered by Telemetry (CCSDS 132.0-B) and Telecommand (CCSDS 232.0-B), therefore a user willing to use VCA should not be limited to AOS.</span>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
Clause 4.3.5 </span>Files may be transmitted by any general file transmission protocol, e.g., via CFDP Class 1 or Class 2 (reference [17]), over CCSDS links or over DTN protocol (references [18] and [19]).
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
I think here reference 18 should be removed as CFDP would never interface LTP directly.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#37605E">Ø </span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E">Why not? Once could do CFDP unreliable over LTP Red, for example, in order to write a very small and
simple (if non-class-1-supporting) CFDP implementation. I don’t feel too strongly about this one way or the other, especially since this text is in the ‘example’ clause of the sentence and is therefore (the way I would read the document) not normative. It
might be better even to separate the example into a NOTE (NOTE: File transfer may for example use CFDP ….) We also don’t have a CFDP over LTP UT layer spec.</span>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
Clause 4.5.5 </span>Frequencies and channelization: If a direct space link to spacecraft is available or if the MCC communicates using a space link to other MCC, the CCSDS standard frequency (reference [20][21][22]) should be used.
<br>
The 3 references mentioned there are the 3 books for Proximity-1. Only [20] addresses the physical layer for "proximity space-to-space links". Since MCC is mentioned I guess that Proximity-1 is not the only candidate.
<br>
Please clarify which scenarios are really addressed by this clause and coordinate with Enrico Vassalo (SLS-RFM chair) for the applicable standards.
<br>
Moreover, is it correct to address frequencies in normative clause without identifying the complete stack from the voice/audio application down to the physical layer?
<br>
Note that if you want to consider the complete stack there are at least Encapsulation Service, TM, TC, AOS to be cited.
<br>
<br>
In 5.1 the sentence <In cases involving landers, rovers, orbiting constellations, and orbiting relays, proximity links should be considered (references [20], [21], [22].) > is correct but how is this visible to the voice/audio application that is recommended
to run over IPoC, DTN or File Xfer? Can the voice/audio application be really aware of the details of the layers immediately below those of the expected services (i.e. IPoC, DTN, CFDP, etc.)?
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<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F"><br>
From: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"Scott, Keith L." <</span><a href="mailto:kscott@mitre.org"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">kscott@mitre.org</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">></span>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F"><br>
To: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"</span><a href="mailto:Secretariat@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Secretariat@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"
<</span><a href="mailto:Secretariat@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Secretariat@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">>, "Thomas Gannett" <</span><a href="mailto:tomg@aiaa.org"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">tomg@aiaa.org</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">>,
<span style="color:#5F5F5F"><br>
Cc: </span>"</span><a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">" <</span><a href="mailto:sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">sis-mia@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">>,
"CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec \(</span><a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org/"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org\</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">)"
<</span><a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">>, "Osvaldo Peinado \(</span><a href="mailto:osvaldo.peinado@dlr.de/"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">osvaldo.peinado@dlr.de\</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">)"
<</span><a href="mailto:osvaldo.peinado@dlr.de"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">osvaldo.peinado@dlr.de</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">></span>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F"><br>
Date: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">24/11/2014 14:54</span>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F"><br>
Subject: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">[CESG] SIS Resolution to submit Voice and Audio Communications Red Book for processing and CESG Polling for Agency Review (SIS-R-2014-11-003)</span>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F"><br>
Sent by: </span><a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E"><br>
CCSDS Secretariat,</span> <span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E">
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</span> <span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E"><br>
The SIS Area, on the recommendation of the Voice and Audio Communications Working Group, resolves (via SIS resolution SIS-R-2014-11-003) to submit the attached Red Book for document processing and CESG polling to release the document for agency review.</span>
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E"><br>
</span> <span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E"><br>
I believe that Cynthia Sachs-Bustos should have the sources for the drawing in the book. If not then we can provide them.</span>
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</span> <span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E"><br>
Very respectfully,</span> <span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E">
<br>
</span> <span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#37605E"><br>
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Dr. Keith Scott</span></b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F"> Office: +1.703.983.6547</span>
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From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> Keith Scott [</span><a href="mailto:keithlscott@gmail.com"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">mailto:keithlscott@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">]
<b><br>
Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 19, 2014 6:44 PM<b><br>
To:</b> Scott, Keith L.<b><br>
Subject:</b> Fwd: Voice and audio communication book for CESG review</span> <br>
<br>
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <<a href="mailto:osvaldo.peinado@dlr.de">osvaldo.peinado@dlr.de</a>><br>
Date: Nov 19, 2014 5:29 AM<br>
Subject: Voice and audio communication book for CESG review<br>
To: <<a href="mailto:tomg@aiaa.org">tomg@aiaa.org</a>><br>
Cc: <<a href="mailto:aid@mcc.rsa.ru">aid@mcc.rsa.ru</a>>, <<a href="mailto:keithlscott@gmail.com">keithlscott@gmail.com</a>>, <<a href="mailto:cynthia@sachs-bustos.com">cynthia@sachs-bustos.com</a>><br>
<br>
Hi Tom <br>
As we talk with Keith, here is the book ready for your magic. <br>
We have several review cycles with Cynthia before the meeting in London and I got today all the final inputs from the WG member.
<br>
Thanks a lot for your support <br>
Best Regards <br>
Osvaldo <br>
<br>
<br>
<b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
Dr. Osvaldo Peinado</span></b> <span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
Ground Operations Manager</span> <span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
German Space Operations Center (GSOC)<br>
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German Aerospace Center (DLR)<br>
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82234 Wessling<br>
Germany</span> <br>
[attachment "CCSDS 766.2-R-0-november.doc" deleted by Gian Paolo Calzolari/esoc/ESA]
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