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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>It’s not an implementation of BP. It’s an API that all implementations of BP could support and that large numbers of applications – applications that already communication over sockets – could use in order to migrate to BP at low cost.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>You’re right, though, that it has nothing to do with the question of creating a group to handle IP over BP, which I doubt is a good idea. (ION has included an implementation of this capability for several years, but nobody seems to be enthusiastic about using it.) I think offering an easy way for existing IP applications to utilize BP (rather than tunneling applications’ current IP traffic over BP) is a better idea.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>Scott<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Deaton, Joshua E. (MSFC-HP27)[MOSSI2] <joshua.e.deaton@nasa.gov> <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 11, 2024 8:54 AM<br><b>To:</b> sburleig.sb@gmail.com; Mayer, Jeremy P. (JSC-OT/ESA)[EUROPEAN SPACE AGENCY] <jeremy.mayer@dlr.de>; Felix.Flentge@esa.int; vint@google.com<br><b>Cc:</b> sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [EXTERNAL] [BULK] Re: [Sis-dtn] BP Sockets [was RE: IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures]<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>While this does look interesting and would definitely have merit in existing I’m not sure what standardization would be needed. This really just looks like another implementation at this point. Also, I’m not sure how this relates to the original question of creating a group for how to handle IP over BP. In that regard I do think a new group would be good as we’ve stated several times that we think it is outside the scope of the SIS-DTN group. I do think there needs to be discussion on what exactly we mean by IP over BP, whether we are going to simply encapsulate an IP packet vs removing the payload from the IP packet a.k.a terminating the transport layer at the bundle creation point. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Sincerely,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Joshua Deaton<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a> <<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 11, 2024 10:34 AM<br><b>To:</b> Deaton, Joshua E. (MSFC-HP27)[MOSSI2] <<a href="mailto:joshua.e.deaton@nasa.gov">joshua.e.deaton@nasa.gov</a>>; Mayer, Jeremy P. (JSC-OT/ESA)[EUROPEAN SPACE AGENCY] <<a href="mailto:jeremy.mayer@dlr.de">jeremy.mayer@dlr.de</a>>; <a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>; <a href="mailto:vint@google.com">vint@google.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [EXTERNAL] [BULK] Re: [Sis-dtn] BP Sockets [was RE: IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures]<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=MsoNormalTable border=1 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 align=left style='border:solid black 1.5pt'><tr><td width="100%" style='width:100.0%;border:none;background:#FFEB9C;padding:3.75pt 3.75pt 3.75pt 3.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-element:frame;mso-element-frame-hspace:2.25pt;mso-element-wrap:around;mso-element-anchor-vertical:paragraph;mso-element-anchor-horizontal:column;mso-height-rule:exactly'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>CAUTION:</span></b><span style='color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>This email originated from outside of NASA. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments. Use the "Report Message" button to report suspicious messages to the NASA SOC.</span><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>The way I conceive it is something like this:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>int bpFd;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>const void *serializedAdu;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>size_t aduLen;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>int flags;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>const struct sockaddr *destEid;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>socklen_t eidLen;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>bpFd = socket(AF_BP, SOCK_RAW, 0);<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>/* Maybe some sockopt() calls. */<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>/* Set destEid, eidLen, maybe flags. */<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>if (sendto(bpFd, serializedAdu, aduLen, flags, destEid, eidLen) < 0)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>{<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'> perror(“Failed to send application data.”);<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>}<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>The implementation and configuration of BP in the sockets code would determine the means by which the data would be transferred. That implementation could be any BP implementation, configured in the same general way that we configure BPAs now, so it would have a convergence layer interface that might invoke TCP or UDP or (directly) IP or LTP or CCSDS encapsulation packets protocol. No need to displace anything, no need even to forego the use of TCP (under BP) for bundle transmission.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>Scott<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Deaton, Joshua E. (MSFC-HP27)[MOSSI2] <<a href="mailto:joshua.e.deaton@nasa.gov">joshua.e.deaton@nasa.gov</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 11, 2024 7:40 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>; Mayer, Jeremy P. (JSC-OT/ESA)[EUROPEAN SPACE AGENCY] <<a href="mailto:jeremy.mayer@dlr.de">jeremy.mayer@dlr.de</a>>; <a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>; <a href="mailto:vint@google.com">vint@google.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [EXTERNAL] [BULK] Re: [Sis-dtn] BP Sockets [was RE: IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures]<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Just to make sure I am following correctly; the current suggestion is to create a POSIX (BSD) Socket Specification for BP where we are putting BP directly on top of IP without TCP/UDP or are we trying to fully displace IP all the way down and so BP replaces IP at layer 3.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Sincerely,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Joshua Deaton<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>sburleig.sb--- via SIS-DTN<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 11, 2024 9:22 AM<br><b>To:</b> Mayer, Jeremy P. (JSC-OT/ESA)[EUROPEAN SPACE AGENCY] <<a href="mailto:jeremy.mayer@dlr.de">jeremy.mayer@dlr.de</a>>; <a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>; <a href="mailto:vint@google.com">vint@google.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] [BULK] Re: [Sis-dtn] BP Sockets [was RE: IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures]<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=MsoNormalTable border=1 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 align=left style='border:solid black 1.5pt'><tr><td width="100%" style='width:100.0%;border:none;background:#FFEB9C;padding:3.75pt 3.75pt 3.75pt 3.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-element:frame;mso-element-frame-hspace:2.25pt;mso-element-wrap:around;mso-element-anchor-vertical:paragraph;mso-element-anchor-horizontal:column;mso-height-rule:exactly'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>CAUTION:</span></b><span style='color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>This email originated from outside of NASA. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments. Use the "Report Message" button to report suspicious messages to the NASA SOC.</span><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>Right, the service interface in the CCSDS BP specification -- like all service specifications -- is abstract; it defines the properties of a BP API for the purpose of explaining the required behavior of a Bundle Protocol Agent. Any number of existing and future BP implementations with very different APIs can be wholly conformant to that specification. But a BP sockets specification would enable any application that currently communicates over POSIX (BSD) sockets to use BP instead of UDP without extensive code changes; the syntax is already in place. That’s the compelling advantage of the idea.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>Scott<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a> <<a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 11, 2024 3:48 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>; <a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>; <a href="mailto:vint@google.com">vint@google.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: BP Sockets [was RE: [Sis-dtn] IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures]<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>In the abstract, I’d say so, but (let’s be honest) many developers tend to ignore the abstract notion of the service interface and prefer to have a tangible set of API operations.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Jeremy<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Felix Flentge <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Montag, 11. März 2024 11:46<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>; Mayer, Jeremy <<a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a>>; <a href="mailto:vint@google.com">vint@google.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> BP Sockets [was RE: [Sis-dtn] IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures]<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DE><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>I like the idea but isn’t this already covered (partially) by the CCSSDS BP service interface, eg:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=DE style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=DE>Bind – register EID in passive state<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Listen – </span><span lang=DE>register EID in active state</span><span lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Connect – sets a default destination for future send.request<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Send – send.request <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Recv – poll.request<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Felix<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b>From:</b> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>sburleig.sb--- via SIS-DTN<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 9, 2024 6:56 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a>; <a href="mailto:vint@google.com">vint@google.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Sis-dtn] IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>Thanks for that analysis, Jeremy. We’ve been talking about at least since STINT several years ago, and I really think it’s an idea whose time has come.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>Scott<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a> <<a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 9, 2024 8:01 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:vint@google.com">vint@google.com</a>; <a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a>; <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Sis-dtn] IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB>That’s a fair point. Generally, I’d say that BP-POSIX could work with the following:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Bind – works: sets source EID.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Listen – works; sets source EID and opens reception. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Connect – UDP style, sets default destination address.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Send – only valid for connected bundlesocks. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Sendto/sendmsg – works.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Recv – works.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Recvfrom/recvmsg – works, probably should support “wildcard” EIDs, at least for services. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Getaddrinfo and friends – not required<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Select – Works, highly implementation dependent.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB>BSD sockets really do work for everything!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB>Jeremy<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b>From:</b> Vint Cerf <<a href="mailto:vint@google.com">vint@google.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Samstag, 9. März 2024 16:51<br><b>To:</b> Scott Burleigh <<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> Mayer, Jeremy <<a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a>>; de Cola, Tomaso <<a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a>>; Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Sis-dtn] IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=DE><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=DE>Yes generally speaking<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=DE><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=DE>On Sat, Mar 9, 2024, 10:43 <<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>I think we get closer to BSD/POSIX if we use UDP as a model. The attenuated UDP notion of connect() would work for BP, I think.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'>Scott</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Aptos",serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><b>From:</b> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org" target="_blank">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy Mayer via SIS-DTN<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 9, 2024 12:35 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:vint@google.com" target="_blank">vint@google.com</a>; <a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de" target="_blank">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org" target="_blank">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Sis-dtn] IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB>Hi,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB>I’m tempted to agree. I’ve seen limited utility in IP->BP encap, as (other than some unidirectional UDP-based applications), the assumptions made in IP networks (especially TCP) do not scale well to DTN environments. The two largest issues I see are:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m-2940071027920571956msolistparagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>A.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>The assumption that relatively low-latency and bidirectional communication is available.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m-2940071027920571956msolistparagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>B.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>The layering of stream and message-based semantics.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB>Almost every TCP-ish application which I’ve seen run over BP winds up with exceptionally low performance, unless some sort of PEP is integrated, which adds complexity, failure points, and fragility. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB>+1 for the notion of a standard API though, with the additional caveat that we should standardize nomenclature across implementations. We could likely reuse about 80% of the BSD/POSIX interface for BP, with the notable exception of connect.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB>Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB>Jeremy</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><b>From:</b> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org" target="_blank">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Vint Cerf via SIS-DTN<br><b>Sent:</b> Freitag, 8. März 2024 12:31<br><b>To:</b> de Cola, Tomaso <<a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de" target="_blank">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org" target="_blank">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Sis-dtn] IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=DE> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=DE>The more I think about this, the less I like trying to manage off-Earth IP networks remotely. I think I would much rather see native applications running over BP. In any case we need to develop standard APIs for BP, such as the Sockets interface for Linux/Unix/Posix. </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=DE> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=DE>We do need to figure out how IP-based and BP-based applications interwork. What do Domain Names mean in the BP context for example. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=DE> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=DE>v</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=DE> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=DE> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=DE>On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 4:24 AM Tomaso de Cola via SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org" target="_blank">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=DE>Dear All,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=DE> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>as mentioned yesterday during our DTN weekly, during the past Fall meeting a presentation was given by University of Nanjing with the support of Chinese agency about IP-networking within DTN-based protocol stacks, especially for planetary network segments (i.e. what is often referred to as IP-islands). <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>The link to that presentation is as follows:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><a href="https://cwe.ccsds.org/sis/docs/SIS-DTN/Meeting%20Materials/2023/Fall%202023%20SIS-DTN/Possible%20BOF%20Discussion.pptx?d=w44d31f0b3be649e4bf24ec4ae50479a1" target="_blank">https://cwe.ccsds.org/sis/docs/SIS-DTN/Meeting%20Materials/2023/Fall%202023%20SIS-DTN/Possible%20BOF%20Discussion.pptx?d=w44d31f0b3be649e4bf24ec4ae50479a1</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>The proposal made there was for a BOF (i.e. towards a WG formation), which I see however too premature. On the contrary, I’d be more in favour for a SIG (Special Interest Group), happening outside the DTN WG.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>As discussed yesterday, key points to clarify/agree are:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m-2940071027920571956m128766250028595583msolistparagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]>Is the proposal sound and meaningful to be addressed?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m-2940071027920571956m128766250028595583msolistparagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]>Is appropriate for the SIS area or should be better addressed at architectural level in SEA (maybe it can be even a cross-area initiative)?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m-2940071027920571956m128766250028595583msolistparagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]>In the case of SIS, is there significant support to start this? In other words, which agencies have interest in contributing to this activity?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Thank you for sharing comments/objections/suggestions.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Have a nice weekend,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Tomaso<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal 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