<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Aptos;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph
{mso-style-priority:34;
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:.5in;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
p.m-2940071027920571956msolistparagraph, li.m-2940071027920571956msolistparagraph, div.m-2940071027920571956msolistparagraph
{mso-style-name:m_-2940071027920571956msolistparagraph;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
p.m-2940071027920571956m128766250028595583msolistparagraph, li.m-2940071027920571956m128766250028595583msolistparagraph, div.m-2940071027920571956m128766250028595583msolistparagraph
{mso-style-name:m_-2940071027920571956m128766250028595583msolistparagraph;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
span.m-2940071027920571956gmailsignatureprefix
{mso-style-name:m_-2940071027920571956gmailsignatureprefix;}
span.EmailStyle24
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 56.7pt 70.85pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:923147096;
mso-list-template-ids:-1958312258;}
@list l0:level1
{mso-level-tab-stop:.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level2
{mso-level-tab-stop:1.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level3
{mso-level-tab-stop:1.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level4
{mso-level-tab-stop:2.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level5
{mso-level-tab-stop:2.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level6
{mso-level-tab-stop:3.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level7
{mso-level-tab-stop:3.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level8
{mso-level-tab-stop:4.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level9
{mso-level-tab-stop:4.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l1
{mso-list-id:1106534235;
mso-list-template-ids:-314555894;}
@list l1:level1
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-upper;
mso-level-tab-stop:.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l1:level2
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-upper;
mso-level-tab-stop:1.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l1:level3
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-upper;
mso-level-tab-stop:1.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l1:level4
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-upper;
mso-level-tab-stop:2.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l1:level5
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-upper;
mso-level-tab-stop:2.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l1:level6
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-upper;
mso-level-tab-stop:3.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l1:level7
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-upper;
mso-level-tab-stop:3.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l1:level8
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-upper;
mso-level-tab-stop:4.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l1:level9
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-upper;
mso-level-tab-stop:4.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l2
{mso-list-id:1915242657;
mso-list-type:hybrid;
mso-list-template-ids:-2121886494 1282996710 67567619 67567621 67567617 67567619 67567621 67567617 67567619 67567621;}
@list l2:level1
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Symbol;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
@list l2:level2
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l2:level3
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l2:level4
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l2:level5
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l2:level6
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l2:level7
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l2:level8
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l2:level9
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Wingdings;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0in;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0in;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Just to make sure I am following correctly; the current suggestion is to create a POSIX (BSD) Socket Specification for BP where we are putting BP directly on top of IP without TCP/UDP or are we trying to fully displace IP all the way down
and so BP replaces IP at layer 3.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sincerely,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Joshua Deaton<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> SIS-DTN <sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org> <b>
On Behalf Of </b>sburleig.sb--- via SIS-DTN<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 11, 2024 9:22 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mayer, Jeremy P. (JSC-OT/ESA)[EUROPEAN SPACE AGENCY] <jeremy.mayer@dlr.de>; Felix.Flentge@esa.int; vint@google.com<br>
<b>Cc:</b> sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] [BULK] Re: [Sis-dtn] BP Sockets [was RE: IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures]<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<table class="MsoNormalTable" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" align="left" style="border:solid black 1.5pt">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width="100%" style="width:100.0%;border:none;background:#FFEB9C;padding:3.75pt 3.75pt 3.75pt 3.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-element:frame;mso-element-frame-hspace:2.25pt;mso-element-wrap:around;mso-element-anchor-vertical:paragraph;mso-element-anchor-horizontal:column;mso-height-rule:exactly">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">CAUTION:</span></b><span style="color:black">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">This email originated from outside of NASA. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments. Use the "Report Message" button to report suspicious messages to the NASA SOC.</span><span style="color:black">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Right, the service interface in the CCSDS BP specification -- like all service specifications -- is abstract; it defines the properties of a BP API for the purpose of explaining the required
behavior of a Bundle Protocol Agent. Any number of existing and future BP implementations with very different APIs can be wholly conformant to that specification. But a BP sockets specification would enable any application that currently communicates over
POSIX (BSD) sockets to use BP instead of UDP without extensive code changes; the syntax is already in place. That’s the compelling advantage of the idea.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Scott<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a> <<a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 11, 2024 3:48 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>; <a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">
sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>; <a href="mailto:vint@google.com">vint@google.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: BP Sockets [was RE: [Sis-dtn] IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures]<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">In the abstract, I’d say so, but (let’s be honest) many developers tend to ignore the abstract notion of the service interface and prefer to have a tangible set of API operations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Jeremy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Felix Flentge <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Montag, 11. März 2024 11:46<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>; Mayer, Jeremy <<a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a>>;
<a href="mailto:vint@google.com">vint@google.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> BP Sockets [was RE: [Sis-dtn] IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures]<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">I like the idea but isn’t this already covered (partially) by the CCSSDS BP service interface, eg:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="DE" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="DE">Bind – register EID in passive state<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-GB">Listen – </span><span lang="DE">register EID in active state</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-GB">Connect – sets a default destination for future send.request<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-GB">Send – send.request <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-GB">Recv – poll.request<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Felix<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b>From:</b> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>sburleig.sb--- via SIS-DTN<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 9, 2024 6:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a>; <a href="mailto:vint@google.com">
vint@google.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Sis-dtn] IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Thanks for that analysis, Jeremy. We’ve been talking about at least since STINT several years ago, and I really think it’s an idea whose time has come.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Scott<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de">
Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a> <<a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 9, 2024 8:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:vint@google.com">vint@google.com</a>; <a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">
sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a>; <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">
sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Sis-dtn] IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB">That’s a fair point. Generally, I’d say that BP-POSIX could work with the following:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-GB">Bind – works: sets source EID.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-GB">Listen – works; sets source EID and opens reception.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-GB">Connect – UDP style, sets default destination address.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-GB">Send – only valid for connected bundlesocks.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-GB">Sendto/sendmsg – works.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-GB">Recv – works.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-GB">Recvfrom/recvmsg – works, probably should support “wildcard” EIDs, at least for services.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-GB">Getaddrinfo and friends – not required<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-GB">Select – Works, highly implementation dependent.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB">BSD sockets really do work for everything!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB">Jeremy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b>From:</b> Vint Cerf <<a href="mailto:vint@google.com">vint@google.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Samstag, 9. März 2024 16:51<br>
<b>To:</b> Scott Burleigh <<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mayer, Jeremy <<a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a>>; de Cola, Tomaso <<a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a>>; Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Sis-dtn] IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE">Yes generally speaking<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE">On Sat, Mar 9, 2024, 10:43 <<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">I think we get closer to BSD/POSIX if we use UDP as a model. The attenuated UDP notion of connect() would work for BP, I think.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Scott</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<b>From:</b> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org" target="_blank">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy Mayer via SIS-DTN<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 9, 2024 12:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:vint@google.com" target="_blank">vint@google.com</a>; <a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de" target="_blank">
Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org" target="_blank">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Sis-dtn] IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="EN-GB">Hi,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="EN-GB">I’m tempted to agree. I’ve seen limited utility in IP->BP encap, as (other than some unidirectional UDP-based applications), the assumptions made in IP networks (especially TCP) do not scale well to DTN environments. The two largest issues
I see are:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-2940071027920571956msolistparagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">A.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-GB">The assumption that relatively low-latency and bidirectional communication is available.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-2940071027920571956msolistparagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">B.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-GB">The layering of stream and message-based semantics.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="EN-GB">Almost every TCP-ish application which I’ve seen run over BP winds up with exceptionally low performance, unless some sort of PEP is integrated, which adds complexity, failure points, and fragility.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="EN-GB">+1 for the notion of a standard API though, with the additional caveat that we should standardize nomenclature across implementations. We could likely reuse about 80% of the BSD/POSIX interface for BP, with the notable exception of connect.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="EN-GB">Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="EN-GB">Jeremy</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<b>From:</b> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org" target="_blank">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Vint Cerf via SIS-DTN<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Freitag, 8. März 2024 12:31<br>
<b>To:</b> de Cola, Tomaso <<a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de" target="_blank">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org" target="_blank">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Sis-dtn] IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE">The more I think about this, the less I like trying to manage off-Earth IP networks remotely. I think I would much rather see native applications running over BP. In any case we need to develop standard APIs for BP, such as the Sockets interface
for Linux/Unix/Posix. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE">We do need to figure out how IP-based and BP-based applications interwork. What do Domain Names mean in the BP context for example. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE">v</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE">On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 4:24 AM Tomaso de Cola via SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org" target="_blank">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE">Dear All,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
as mentioned yesterday during our DTN weekly, during the past Fall meeting a presentation was given by University of Nanjing with the support of Chinese agency about IP-networking within DTN-based protocol stacks, especially for planetary network segments (i.e.
what is often referred to as IP-islands). <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
The link to that presentation is as follows:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<a href="https://cwe.ccsds.org/sis/docs/SIS-DTN/Meeting%20Materials/2023/Fall%202023%20SIS-DTN/Possible%20BOF%20Discussion.pptx?d=w44d31f0b3be649e4bf24ec4ae50479a1" target="_blank">https://cwe.ccsds.org/sis/docs/SIS-DTN/Meeting%20Materials/2023/Fall%202023%20SIS-DTN/Possible%20BOF%20Discussion.pptx?d=w44d31f0b3be649e4bf24ec4ae50479a1</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
The proposal made there was for a BOF (i.e. towards a WG formation), which I see however too premature. On the contrary, I’d be more in favour for a SIG (Special Interest Group), happening outside the DTN WG.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
As discussed yesterday, key points to clarify/agree are:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-2940071027920571956m128766250028595583msolistparagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><![endif]>Is the proposal sound and meaningful to be addressed?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-2940071027920571956m128766250028595583msolistparagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><![endif]>Is appropriate for the SIS area or should be better addressed at architectural level in SEA (maybe it can be even a cross-area initiative)?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-2940071027920571956m128766250028595583msolistparagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><![endif]>In the case of SIS, is there significant support to start this? In other words, which agencies have interest in contributing to this activity?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
Thank you for sharing comments/objections/suggestions.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
Have a nice weekend,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
Tomaso<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:dimgray">————————————————————————</span><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:dimgray">Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt</span></b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:dimgray"> (DLR)</span><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:dimgray">German Aerospace Center</span><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:dimgray">Institute of Communications and Navigation | Satellite Networks | Oberpfaffenhofen | 82234 Wessling | Germany</span><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#1F497D">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<b><span lang="IT" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:dimgray">Tomaso de Cola, Ph.D.</span></b><span lang="IT" style="color:#1F497D"> |
</span><b><span lang="IT" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:dimgray">Integrated Satellite Systems (INS) Team Leader<br>
</span></b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:dimgray">Telefon
<a href="tel:+49%208153%20282156" target="_blank">+49 8153 28-2156</a> | Telefax
<a href="tel:+49%208153%20282844" target="_blank">+49 8153 28-2844</a> |</span><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:sandro.scalise@dlr.de" target="_blank"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">tomaso.decola@dlr.de</span></a></span><span lang="DE" style="color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/san" target="_blank"><span lang="DE">http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/san</span></a></span><span style="color:#1F497D">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE">_______________________________________________<br>
SIS-DTN mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:SIS-DTN@mailman.ccsds.org" target="_blank">SIS-DTN@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mailman.ccsds.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sis-dtn" target="_blank">https://mailman.ccsds.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sis-dtn</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE"><br clear="all">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span class="m-2940071027920571956gmailsignatureprefix"><span lang="DE">-- </span>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE">Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE">Vint Cerf</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE">Google, LLC</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE">1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE">Reston, VA 20190</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE">+1 (571) 213 1346</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE">until further notice</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="DE"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">This message is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. It may contain proprietary information and/or protected content. Any unauthorised disclosure, use, retention or dissemination is prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately. ESA applies appropriate organisational measures to protect personal data, in case of data privacy queries, please contact the ESA Data Protection Officer (<a href="mailto:dpo@esa.int">dpo@esa.int</a>).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>