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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">On the the IP / BP Networking discussion:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:54.0pt;mso-list:l8 level1 lfo12">
<span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I believe from CCSDS / IOAG / IPNSIG perspective (please correct me if I am wrong), we see BP as the E2E (inter-)networking protocol (see, eg
</span><a href="https://www.ioag.org/Public%20Documents/IOAG%20Recommendations%20on%20the%20Selection%20of%20ETE%20Space%20Internetworking%20Protocol%20(002).pdf">IOAG Recommendations on the Selection of ETE Space Internetworking Protocol (002).pdf</a>). As
such, I would see IP networks eg on lunar surface as isolated Local Area Networks without IP routing into other IP networks. As pointed out by Jeremy, we should avoid (naïve) IP / BP encapsulation.<span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:54.0pt;mso-list:l8 level1 lfo12">
<span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">For CCSDS / IOAG we should focus on the near- to medium-term use case. For me this means mainly spacecraft M&C, bulk data downlink, voice&video, teleoperations, last-hop/first-hop, messaging. Of course, it is interesting
to think and experiment with terrestrial applications over BP but I don’t believe this should be an CCSDS / IOAG task priority right now.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:54.0pt;mso-list:l8 level1 lfo12">
<span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">We need to be aware of the on-going activities, in particular LunaNet Interoperability Specification and IOAG Work (SC#2 update; I will present at spring meeting). IMHO, we might already have to many WG related, so I
am not in favour of creating a new one.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:54.0pt;mso-list:l8 level1 lfo12">
<span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">It certainly would make sense to consider the IP / BP networking case in the SEA architectures (with support from DTN WG)
<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Felix<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> SIS-DTN <sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>sburleig.sb--- via SIS-DTN<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 9, 2024 6:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de; vint@google.com<br>
<b>Cc:</b> sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Sis-dtn] IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Thanks for that analysis, Jeremy. We’ve been talking about at least since STINT several years ago, and I really think it’s an idea whose time has come.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Scott<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US">
<a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a> <<a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 9, 2024 8:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:vint@google.com">vint@google.com</a>; <a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">
sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a>; <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">
sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Sis-dtn] IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">That’s a fair point. Generally, I’d say that BP-POSIX could work with the following:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>Bind – works: sets source EID.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>Listen – works; sets source EID and opens reception.
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>Connect – UDP style, sets default destination address.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>Send – only valid for connected bundlesocks. <o:p>
</o:p></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>Sendto/sendmsg – works.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>Recv – works.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>Recvfrom/recvmsg – works, probably should support “wildcard” EIDs, at least for services.
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>Getaddrinfo and friends – not required<o:p></o:p></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>Select – Works, highly implementation dependent.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">BSD sockets really do work for everything!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Jeremy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Vint Cerf <<a href="mailto:vint@google.com">vint@google.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Samstag, 9. März 2024 16:51<br>
<b>To:</b> Scott Burleigh <<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mayer, Jeremy <<a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a>>; de Cola, Tomaso <<a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a>>; Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Sis-dtn] IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="DE"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="DE">Yes generally speaking<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="DE"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="DE">On Sat, Mar 9, 2024, 10:43 <<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">I think we get closer to BSD/POSIX if we use UDP as a model. The attenuated UDP notion of connect() would work for BP, I think.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Scott</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org" target="_blank">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy Mayer via SIS-DTN<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 9, 2024 12:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:vint@google.com" target="_blank">vint@google.com</a>; <a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de" target="_blank">
Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org" target="_blank">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Sis-dtn] IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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Hi,<span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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I’m tempted to agree. I’ve seen limited utility in IP->BP encap, as (other than some unidirectional UDP-based applications), the assumptions made in IP networks (especially TCP) do not scale well to DTN environments. The two largest issues I see are:<span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">A.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>The assumption that relatively low-latency and bidirectional communication is available.<span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">B.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>The layering of stream and message-based semantics.<span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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Almost every TCP-ish application which I’ve seen run over BP winds up with exceptionally low performance, unless some sort of PEP is integrated, which adds complexity, failure points, and fragility.
<span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
+1 for the notion of a standard API though, with the additional caveat that we should standardize nomenclature across implementations. We could likely reuse about 80% of the BSD/POSIX interface for BP, with the notable exception of connect.<span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
Thanks,<span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
Jeremy<span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org" target="_blank">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Vint Cerf via SIS-DTN<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Freitag, 8. März 2024 12:31<br>
<b>To:</b> de Cola, Tomaso <<a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de" target="_blank">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org" target="_blank">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Sis-dtn] IP networking within DTN-based protocol architectures<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="DE"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="DE">The more I think about this, the less I like trying to manage off-Earth IP networks remotely. I think I would much rather see native applications running over BP. In any case we need to develop standard APIs for BP, such as the Sockets interface
for Linux/Unix/Posix. </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang="DE"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="DE">We do need to figure out how IP-based and BP-based applications interwork. What do Domain Names mean in the BP context for example. </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang="DE"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="DE">v</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="DE"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="DE"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="DE">On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 4:24 AM Tomaso de Cola via SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org" target="_blank">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>> wrote:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="DE">Dear All,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="DE"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US">as mentioned yesterday during our DTN weekly, during the past Fall meeting a presentation was given by University of Nanjing with the support of Chinese agency about IP-networking within DTN-based protocol stacks, especially for planetary
network segments (i.e. what is often referred to as IP-islands). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US">The link to that presentation is as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://cwe.ccsds.org/sis/docs/SIS-DTN/Meeting%20Materials/2023/Fall%202023%20SIS-DTN/Possible%20BOF%20Discussion.pptx?d=w44d31f0b3be649e4bf24ec4ae50479a1" target="_blank">https://cwe.ccsds.org/sis/docs/SIS-DTN/Meeting%20Materials/2023/Fall%202023%20SIS-DTN/Possible%20BOF%20Discussion.pptx?d=w44d31f0b3be649e4bf24ec4ae50479a1</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US">The proposal made there was for a BOF (i.e. towards a WG formation), which I see however too premature. On the contrary, I’d be more in favour for a SIG (Special Interest Group), happening outside the DTN WG.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US">As discussed yesterday, key points to clarify/agree are:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US">Is the proposal sound and meaningful to be addressed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m-2940071027920571956m128766250028595583msolistparagraph" style="margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo9">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US">Is appropriate for the SIS area or should be better addressed at architectural level in SEA (maybe it can be even a cross-area initiative)?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US">In the case of SIS, is there significant support to start this? In other words, which agencies have interest in contributing to this activity?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US">Thank you for sharing comments/objections/suggestions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US">Have a nice weekend,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US">Tomaso<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:dimgray">————————————————————————</span><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:dimgray">Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt</span></b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:dimgray"> (DLR)</span><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#1F497D">
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</span><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:dimgray">German Aerospace Center</span><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#1F497D">
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</span><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:dimgray">Institute of Communications and Navigation | Satellite Networks | Oberpfaffenhofen | 82234 Wessling | Germany</span><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#1F497D">
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<b><span lang="IT" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:dimgray">Tomaso de Cola, Ph.D.</span></b><span lang="IT" style="color:#1F497D"> |
</span><b><span lang="IT" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:dimgray">Integrated Satellite Systems (INS) Team Leader<br>
</span></b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:dimgray">Telefon
<a href="tel:+49%208153%20282156" target="_blank">+49 8153 28-2156</a> | Telefax
<a href="tel:+49%208153%20282844" target="_blank">+49 8153 28-2844</a> |</span><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:sandro.scalise@dlr.de" target="_blank"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">tomaso.decola@dlr.de</span></a></span><span lang="DE" style="color:#1F497D">
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</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/san" target="_blank"><span lang="DE">http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/san</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">
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<span lang="DE">_______________________________________________<br>
SIS-DTN mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:SIS-DTN@mailman.ccsds.org" target="_blank">SIS-DTN@mailman.ccsds.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mailman.ccsds.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sis-dtn" target="_blank">https://mailman.ccsds.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sis-dtn</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-2940071027920571956gmailsignatureprefix"><span lang="DE">-- </span>
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<span lang="DE">Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="DE">Vint Cerf</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="DE">Google, LLC</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="DE">1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="DE">Reston, VA 20190</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="DE">+1 (571) 213 1346</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="DE">until further notice</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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