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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link="#0563C1" vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Jonathan, it sounds to me like the core issue here is whether to add all of this bundle labeling and sequence checking functionality to the existing requirements on primary block processing or to instead define it rigorously in an extension block and leave primary block processing alone.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>If the additional processing requirements are imposed on primary block processing, then all deployments of all implementations of BPv7 are affected, including those for whom none of this functionality is needed in any way. They will of course not recognize the new bundle processing control flags and will ignore them, but bundle uniqueness will routinely be lost unaccountably if (for example) bundle creation time is zero and bundle sequence numbers roll over at 2^16 per sequence number length flag values 01.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>It may be possible to constrain the required supplementary BPv7 specification in a way that shields existing BPv7 users from its impact. But I believe that will be a difficult specification to write and the cost of getting it wrong will be significant.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I think it would be a much better use of SCaN’s DTN resources to draft a clean extension block specification. At the data rates being contemplated here, I think the small increment in bundle size should be an acceptable price to pay for these capabilities.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Scott<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Wilmot, Jonathan J. (GSFC-580.0)[VANTAGE SYSTEMS INC] <jonathan.j.wilmot@nasa.gov> <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 9, 2023 9:20 AM<br><b>To:</b> Carlo Caini <carlo.caini@unibo.it>; 'Felix Flentge' <Felix.Flentge@esa.int>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org>; sburleig.sb@gmail.com<br><b>Cc:</b> Singh, Somendra {Simon} (GSFC-5820) <simon.singh@nasa.gov>; Birrane, Edward J. (GSFC-460.0)[Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Lab] <edward.j.birrane@nasa.gov><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [EXTERNAL] R: [Sis-dtn] Special use of sequence number in bundle creation time stamp<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Carlo,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> For the use cases that we are considering, any time a source node sends the same bundle to two or more destinations it uses Scott’s proposed multi-destination protocol. If a node wants to send different bundles to different destinations, then they are different services. (org.node.service) In our flight system data model source “.service” is a discriminator for different bundle types/ADU. NASA.PACE.QuickLookScience is one service and NASA.PACE.BulkData is another.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I can see an issue with the set of common “service” numbers, but maybe those are in the destination EID not the source.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I agree we don’t want to break the original use case.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> Jonathan Wilmot<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>CCSDS SOIS Area Director<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>GSFC DTN Systems Engineer<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>cFS Architecture<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Cell 301-751-2658<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Carlo Caini <<a href="mailto:carlo.caini@unibo.it">carlo.caini@unibo.it</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 9, 2023 11:50 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'Felix Flentge' <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>; <a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b> Singh, Somendra {Simon} (GSFC-5820) <<a href="mailto:simon.singh@nasa.gov">simon.singh@nasa.gov</a>>; Wilmot, Jonathan J. (GSFC-580.0)[VANTAGE SYSTEMS INC] <<a href="mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot@nasa.gov">jonathan.j.wilmot@nasa.gov</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] R: [Sis-dtn] Special use of sequence number in bundle creation time stamp<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=MsoNormalTable border=1 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 align=left style='border:solid black 1.5pt'><tr><td width="100%" style='width:100.0%;border:none;background:#FFEB9C;padding:3.75pt 3.75pt 3.75pt 3.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-element:frame;mso-element-frame-hspace:2.25pt;mso-element-wrap:around;mso-element-anchor-vertical:paragraph;mso-element-anchor-horizontal:column;mso-height-rule:exactly'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>CAUTION:</span></b><span style='color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>This email originated from outside of NASA. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments. Use the "Report Message" button to report suspicious messages to the NASA SOC.</span><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>I fully agree with Scott on his comments and suggestions. More generally, I would avoid, whenever possible, the use of a parameter designed to a specific end, such as timestamp sequence number here, to different purposes. However, appealing it may be on a short term, it is looking for troubles on the long term.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Specifically, the timestamp sequence number is not the same as an hupothetical bundle sequence number, as pointed out by Scott. Moreover, if we assume that a source generates bundles to a give destination to specific rate, e.g. one bundle per second, the sequence number increment between two consecutive bundles of this flow may be larger than one. For example, the first sequence number of the bundle flow could be 1 and the second 5. It is enough that the same source generates in the meantime other 3 bundles to different destinations. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Yours,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> Carlo<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="98%" align=center></div><div id=divRplyFwdMsg><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='color:black'>Da:</span></b><span style='color:black'> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>> per conto di sburleig.sb--- via SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br><b>Inviato:</b> mercoledė 9 agosto 2023 17:31<br><b>A:</b> 'Felix Flentge' <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> 'Singh, Somendra {Simon} (GSFC-5820)' <<a href="mailto:simon.singh@nasa.gov">simon.singh@nasa.gov</a>>; 'Wilmot, Jonathan J. (GSFC-580.0)[VANTAGE SYSTEMS INC]' <<a href="mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot@nasa.gov">jonathan.j.wilmot@nasa.gov</a>><br><b>Oggetto:</b> Re: [Sis-dtn] Special use of sequence number in bundle creation time stamp</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=xmsonormal>Hi, Felix. One thing to keep in mind is that the purpose of the sequence number in the bundle creation timestamp is to distinguish among bundles that have the same bundle creation time. This can occur when bundles are created at a very high rate or when bundle creation time is zero due to the absence of an accurate clock.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal>I would suggest that using bundle creation timestamp sequence numbers for other purposes makes it more difficult to use those numbers for their original purpose.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal>If sequence numbering of bundles in these various ways is important, I think it would be better to encode those numbers (and the flags describing their significance) in an immutable extension block, i.e., an extension block that is one of the additional targets of a block integrity block covering the primary block.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal>Scott<o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=xmsonormal><b>From:</b> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Felix Flentge via SIS-DTN<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 9, 2023 7:43 AM<br><b>To:</b> Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> Singh, Somendra {Simon} (GSFC-5820) <<a href="mailto:simon.singh@nasa.gov">simon.singh@nasa.gov</a>>; Wilmot, Jonathan J. (GSFC-580.0)[VANTAGE SYSTEMS INC] <<a href="mailto:jonathan.j.wilmot@nasa.gov">jonathan.j.wilmot@nasa.gov</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> [Sis-dtn] Special use of sequence number in bundle creation time stamp<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><span lang=EN-GB>Dear All,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><span lang=EN-GB>I think we have had some initial exchange on the use of the sequence number in the bundle creation timestamp some time ago. Meanwhile, we had a number of side meetings with Jonathan, Simon and others to further discuss the topic of ‘flows’, compressed bundle reporting and network management.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><span lang=EN-GB>We have arrived at a point where we think that it makes sense to allow using the sequence number in the primary header for identifying gaps in sequences of bundles or to even allow for in-sequence delivery.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><span lang=EN-GB>The basic idea is that the sequence number does not get reset to zero but is incrementing by one until a specified maximum. Further we might use different, individual sequence numbers per source node ID or per destination endpoint ID. Such a behaviour might be governed by policy or even indicated in the Primary Block’s Processing Control Flags, like</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo1'><span lang=EN-GB>Use two bits to specify whether the creation timestamp sequence number is used in special way:</span><o:p></o:p></li></ol><p class=xmsonormal><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><span lang=EN-GB>00 – single sequence number - no specific usage</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><span lang=EN-GB>01 – an individual sequence number is used per source node id</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><span lang=EN-GB>10 – an individual sequence number is used per destination endpoint id</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><span lang=EN-GB>11 – reserved (until we find a good usage; maybe individual sequence number per next hop)</span><o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=xmsonormal><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><b><span lang=EN-GB>In case 10 with different destination endpoint IDs, the BPA has to guarantee that the same values can only appear with different bundle creation times!</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=2 type=1><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo3'><span lang=EN-GB>Use of two bits to indicate the maximum length of the sequence number (00 above) or individual sequence numbers (01 and 10 above):</span><o:p></o:p></li></ol><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=xmsonormal style='mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4'><span lang=EN-GB>00 - sequence numbers are assigned somehow (reset to zero, randomly, ..)</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class=xmsonormal style='mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4'><span lang=EN-GB>01 - increasing sequence number up to 2^16-1</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class=xmsonormal style='mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4'><span lang=EN-GB>10 - increasing sequence number up to 2^32-1</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class=xmsonormal style='mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4'><span lang=EN-GB>11 - increasing sequence number up to 2^64-1</span><o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=xmsonormal><span lang=EN-GB>My main questions:</span><o:p></o:p></p><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo5'><span lang=EN-GB>Does it make sense to use flags in the primary header for this purpose or is it sufficient to document that sequence numbers can be used in that way and leave it up to policy to specify certain behaviours? I have a slight preference for using the BPCF as it seems more formal and could ease interoperability (and the sequence number is in the primary header, so why not indicate it there).</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo5'><span lang=EN-GB>If we want to use BPCF, what is the way to specify this? Should we / do we need to go IETF or could CCSDS be sufficient (to start with)? Ideally we would use some of the reserved first 16 bits (e.g. Bit 7 – 10)</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo5'><span lang=EN-GB>No matter whether we want to use BCPF or not, I think something should end up in the CCSDS BB as soon as possible. So, maybe there is a chance for a late RID (if it does not delay the overall publication process). We should start discussing (maybe tomorrow).</span><o:p></o:p></li></ol><p class=xmsonormal><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><span lang=EN-GB>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><span lang=EN-GB>Felix</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><span lang=EN-GB>This message is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. It may contain proprietary information and/or protected content. Any unauthorised disclosure, use, retention or dissemination is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately. ESA applies appropriate organisational measures to protect personal data, in case of data privacy queries, please contact the ESA Data Protection Officer (<a href="mailto:dpo@esa.int">dpo@esa.int</a>). </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>