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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">No,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The issue is that there is no generic way to determine the length of an SDA client data capsule (or I am overlooking something).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Of course, it works for a lot of specific client data units if the client data units themselves allow to determine the lengths (as it is the case for bundles) and the receiver knows the format of
each client data.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Felix<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> sburleig.sb@gmail.com <sburleig.sb@gmail.com>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 1, 2023 5:18 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Felix Flentge <Felix.Flentge@esa.int>; 'Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C)' <jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov>; 'Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H)' <marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org>; keithlscott@gmail.com<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Gao, Jay L (US 332C)' <jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov>; 'Richard, Nate J (US 332C)' <nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Felix, I am neutral on the utility of service data aggregation, but can you say a little bit about what makes it non-interoperable? It’s formally defined in the current LTP blue book, in normative
language (7.2), right? Are you just saying that existing implementations of LTP don’t all implement this element of the specification and therefore do not interoperate?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Scott<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Felix Flentge <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 1, 2023 7:38 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H) <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>;
<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>;
<a href="mailto:keithlscott@gmail.com">keithlscott@gmail.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gao, Jay L (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov">jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; Richard, Nate J (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov">nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">I think the point is that Service Data Aggregation is that it is not-interoperable. As such it should not be used (at least in interoperability scenarios). We don’t need to hint at the new protocol. [I would think
that this is a true corrigendum].<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Felix<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 31, 2023 6:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H) <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>;
<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>; Felix Flentge <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>;
<a href="mailto:keithlscott@gmail.com">keithlscott@gmail.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gao, Jay L (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov">jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; Richard, Nate J (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov">nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Looks OK but at the end it says “</span>service IDs are agreed. It is expected that Service Data Aggregation will be removed from<span style="color:red"> LTPv2
</span>and that eventual aggregation shall be performed by upper layers if deemed necessary.<span lang="EN-US">”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">If the fpga/asic version isn’t going to be called LTP2, this will have to be revised.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Leigh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">"Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H)" <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 1:18 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>>, "Torgerson, Jordan L (332M)" <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>,
'Felix Flentge' <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>>, "'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN'" <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>, "<a href="mailto:keithlscott@gmail.com">keithlscott@gmail.com</a>"
<<a href="mailto:keithlscott@gmail.com">keithlscott@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"Gao, Jay L (US 332C)" <<a href="mailto:jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov">jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>, "Richard, Nate J (US 332C)" <<a href="mailto:nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov">nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">A quick update to the draft LTP corrigendum with a few more items to make sure some of the issues being brought up in this email chain don’t fall through the cracks.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Also, a minor note on Scott’s comment that “<i>the arrival of the first segment of the next “green” block is a simpler and perhaps more accurate (configuration-free) means of determining that
it is time to deliver the current block</i>”: How does the receiving LTP engine handle the very last LTP block of a pass? Without a timer, would it ever be released to the application? I hate to add new timers, but I do not see how to get around it in this
this corner case.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Marc Sanchez Net (332H)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Telecommunications Engineer</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt;background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Jet Propulsion Laboratory<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt;background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Cell:</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="mailto:(617)%20953-7977"><span style="color:#0563C1">(617)
953-7977</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0070C0">
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">|</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0070C0">
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Email:</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"><a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US">
<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a> <<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; 'Felix Flentge' <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>>; Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H) <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>;
'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gao, Jay L (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov">jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; Richard, Nate J (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov">nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Guys, a thought on this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">In “red” transmission you expect out-of-order segment arrival on a routine basis, because every retransmitted bundle will arrive out of order. There are timers in the protocol to support the
operation of the retransmission procedures.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">In “green” transmission you cannot have out-of-order segment arrival if you size your blocks in such a way that each block is transmitted in a single segment. I believe users will typically
adopt this model, as “green” data will normally be data for which minimized delay is more important than reliability (otherwise they would use “red” transmission).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">In “green” transmission where the blocks are large enough to require transmission in multiple segments you have to wait for an entire block to arrive – or until you are confident that any missing
segments were actually lost rather than simply forwarded out of order – before delivering the contents of the block. But there’s no re-transmission to avoid, because the transmission is “green”, right? If you wanted retransmission you would have used “red”.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">So in that event I would suggest that the arrival of the first segment of the next “green” block is a simpler and perhaps more accurate (configuration-free) means of determining that it is time
to deliver the current block – complete or incomplete – and let the application figure out what to do about the missing data.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Scott<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 30, 2023 7:54 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Felix Flentge <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>>;
<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>; Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H) <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gao, Jay L (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov">jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; Richard, Nate J (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov">nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks Felix –
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Agreed - A statement warning about how implementations should be wary of out-of-order deliveries would be useful in the corrigendum..<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Leigh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Felix Flentge <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, May 29, 2023 at 11:47 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>"Torgerson, Jordan L (332M)" <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>, "<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>>,
"Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H)" <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>, "'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN'" <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"Gao, Jay L (US 332C)" <<a href="mailto:jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov">jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>, "Richard, Nate J (US 332C)" <<a href="mailto:nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov">nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt">Hi Leigh,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt">Yes, we also have systematic out-of-order in EO or L2 missions as different physical channels may be used (with maybe different rates and different PDU sizes). With ‘implementation issue’ I don’t mean that it
is not important but I would like to avoid making it normative as we want to avoid ‘changing the standard’ which would require interop testing.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt">By any means, we should have a statement that in case you may have out-of-order delivery it is recommended to implement timer to wait for out-of-order segments to avoid re-transmission (we will add a similar statement
to CFDP for the next release).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt">Felix<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 25, 2023 6:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Felix Flentge <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>>;
<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>; Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H) <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gao, Jay L (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov">jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; Richard, Nate J (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov">nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks Felix –
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">One comment is that in deep space use of DTN, we would expect that out-of-order delivery would be the rule, rather than the exception – if it takes 40 min RTT to recover a missing segment from
Mars, waiting for it to ensure in-order delivery to some application would make ops impossible. (One must design one’s applications to be “aware” of the operational environment of course..)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">We haven’t used both LTP red/green at the same time in our testing and real-world ops as far as I know, but I suspect that recommending that red and green be in different sessions would be
a good idea, if nothing else but to make troubleshooting easier! (Nate and Jay may have some thoughts based on our lunar ops with KPLO so I cc:d them..)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Leigh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Felix Flentge <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 4:56 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>>, "Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H)" <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>,
"'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN'" <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"Torgerson, Jordan L (332M)" <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt">I agree with the modifications below.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt">Some additional points:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:144.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>I would propose to also deprecate Service Data Aggregation (it is currently mandatory). Unless, I am overlooking something, it is not an interoperable mechanism as there is no generic way to determine the length of a client data
capsule. Also, for BP/LTP the updated BP standard will describe an aggregation mechanism (CBOR length information + bundle IIRC).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:144.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>Should we discourage use of mixed sessions (on the other hand LTP green is optional anyway)?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:144.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>For the two additional issues, we could add that this is an implementation issue and that implementation may want to introduce these additional timers in case they (routinely) expect out-of-order delivery<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt">Felix<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:108.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:144.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>sburleig.sb--- via SIS-DTN<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 18, 2023 1:23 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H)' <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C)' <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:144.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:144.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Marc, FWIW, I agree about deprecating LTP security and I am likewise skeptical that adding more timers is a good idea; that sounds like a way to work around a design element that hasn’t been
thought through completely.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:144.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:144.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Scott<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:144.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:144.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H) via SIS-DTN<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2023 7:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:144.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:144.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:144.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:144.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Please find attached a new version of the LTP corrigendum with some modifications including:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:180.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Comparison between LTP and "the new protocol" has been reduced. This in part motivated by the fact that we have demonstrated ~4 Gbps rates with ION's LTP implementation, which is more than
sufficient for deep space links (e.g., even in future trunk lines between Earth and Mars, data rates of 4 Gbps are never exceeded).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:180.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">I have added two possible additions to the technical corrigendum based on work done by Brian and people at GRC. They are all optional (MAY) statements and I believe can be implemented without
additional managed parameters (and timers).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:180.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Brian has commented on two additional issues (see
<a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/22__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33vk9LEw4$" title="https://github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/22">
here</a> and <a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/24__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33uBoiHHY$" title="https://github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/24">
here</a>), but those seem to require additional timers that would need to be managed, so I am unconvinced it is worth the extra complexity. Brian, please correct me if I am wrong.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:144.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Finally, I think the note at the beginning of Section 3.9 of the current CCSDS LTP spec should be modified to explicitly state that LTP security should not be used and,
instead, implementers should rely on security mechanisms provided by other parts of the CCSDS protocol stack, be it SDLS or BPSec. Thoughts on this point? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:144.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/24__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33uBoiHHY$" target="_blank"><span style="border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="240" height="120" style="width:2.5in;height:1.25in" id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:~WRD0000.jpg" alt="Image removed by sender."></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Light",sans-serif"><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/24__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33uBoiHHY$" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration:none">Defer
data retransmission with out-of-order report segments · Issue #24 · nasa/HDTN</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div style="margin-right:6.0pt;margin-bottom:9.0pt;max-height: 100px;overflow:hidden" id="LPDescription765850">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#666666">When the network is causing out-of-order segment reception it is possible that one or more synchronous reception reports are received either out-of-order or
within a short time window, possibly fol...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#A6A6A6">github.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/22__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33vk9LEw4$" target="_blank"><span style="border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="240" height="120" style="width:2.5in;height:1.25in" id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:~WRD0000.jpg" alt="Image removed by sender."></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Light",sans-serif"><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/22__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33vk9LEw4$" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration:none">Defer
synchronous reception report with out-of-order data segments · Issue #22 · nasa/HDTN</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div style="margin-right:6.0pt;margin-bottom:9.0pt;max-height: 100px;overflow:hidden" id="LPDescription694819">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#666666">When red part data is segmented and delivered to the receiving engine out-of-order, the checkpoint(s) and EORP can be received before the earlier-in-block data
segments. If a synchronous report is ...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#A6A6A6">github.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:144.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:144.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:144.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Marc Sanchez Net (332H)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:144.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Telecommunications Engineer</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:144.0pt;background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Jet Propulsion Laboratory</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:144.0pt;background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Cell:</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="mailto:(617)%20953-7977">(617)
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</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Email:</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"><a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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