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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Marc, for my own purposes the one reason for using unreliable LTP is to take advantage of the segmentation of larger-than-MTU blocks. It’s a useful thing on its own separate from other capabilities of LTP. Similar to some of these other recommendations, it would be helpful for implementations to know “if you are able to choose block sizes then here is a recommendation … Otherwise if you are using green block segmentation then here are some considerations (about timing and resource leaks) …”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I think it’s better for an designer/implementer to be aware of potential issues and head them off than to try to ignore or impose restrictions on the service which would prohibit existing use cases.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> SIS-DTN <sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H) via SIS-DTN<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 31, 2023 8:55 AM<br><b>To:</b> Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de; sburleig.sb@gmail.com; Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C) <jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov>; Felix.Flentge@esa.int; sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org; keithlscott@gmail.com<br><b>Subject:</b> [EXT] Re: [Sis-dtn] [EXTERNAL] RE: New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div id=APLWarningText><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 align=left><tr><td width="100%" style='width:100.0%;background:#E0E0E0;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-element:frame;mso-element-frame-hspace:1.8pt;mso-element-wrap:around;mso-element-anchor-vertical:paragraph;mso-element-anchor-horizontal:column;mso-height-rule:exactly'><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:red'>APL external email warning: </span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black'>Verify sender </span><a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black'> before clicking links or attachments</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr></table><p> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>I am unconvinced either way, to be honest. I agree with Jeremy forcing the LTP engine to know the contact plan is not great, but having another “stale session timeout” seems an equally non-ideal solution. Would all these problems “go away” if we force in the spec that a green block always be transmitted as a single green segment? But then the block size must be matched to the underlying link MTU (or transmission size used by the mission) which is <=65 kB for transfer frames, I believe. Would that be too restrictive if we sent streaming video over LTP green?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Marc Sanchez Net (332H)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:gray'>Telecommunications Engineer</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:gray'>Jet Propulsion Laboratory<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:gray'>Cell:</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222'> </span><a href="mailto:(617)%20953-7977"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0563C1'>(617) 953-7977</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0070C0'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:gray'>|</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0070C0'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:gray'>Email:</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222'> </span><a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</span></a><span style='font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a> <<a href="mailto:Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de">Jeremy.Mayer@dlr.de</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 31, 2023 1:05 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>; Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H) <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; <a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>; <a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>; <a href="mailto:keithlscott@gmail.com">keithlscott@gmail.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Sis-dtn] [EXTERNAL] RE: New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Realistically, I agree, the LTP engine should probably be aware of either the contact plan OR the status of the downlink. That being said, I don’t think that’s a dependency which we want to force, due to the “perpetual downlink” use-case (ISS). There’s nothing stopping me from running a single LTP link from now until the end of time, unaware of the status of the underlying link. Of course, there’s the caveat that green sessions may be transmitted into the void, never to be seen again.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>That being said, the “last green block” problem is insidious: In a nominal downlink (e.g. with minimal out-of-order arrival and loss), we can use the EOB as a signal that the block should be delivered. However, if the EOB is out-of-order, there’s a problem: the application shouldn’t have to expect that data from the same session may arrive twice. The only way to really deal with this in the face of out-of-order/missing arrivals is to track the completeness of a green session. If the EOB block is delivered while data is still missing, we ignore it and “hold” the session until a user-specified timeout. In LTPv2, we called this the “stale session timeout”. If more data is delivered into one of these pending sessions, it can still be enqueued and delivered upon timeout. This allows us to treat out of order sessions and those where the EOB is missed in the same way.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Jeremy<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>sburleig.sb--- via SIS-DTN<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:55 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H)' <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; 'Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C)' <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; 'Felix Flentge' <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>; <a href="mailto:keithlscott@gmail.com">keithlscott@gmail.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Sis-dtn] [EXTERNAL] RE: New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Marc, good question. My thought on this is that LTP needs to be aware of the “contact plan” in order to know when to pause and resume the “red” timers. Given this, the LTP engine should be able to infer that cessation of green block segment reception is due to the termination of the pass. At that point we have a matter of policy. If it’s known that green block transmission is always supposed to happen far enough before the end of the pass to enable complete reception, then the end of the pass signifies that any currently incomplete block is not going to be completed and the block’s current incomplete contents can be delivered. If not, then maybe the current state of that incomplete final block should be sustained until the start of the next pass enables further reception of that block’s segments.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Of course, sticking to small green blocks that are transmitted in single green segments makes the whole issue go away.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Scott<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H) <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 30, 2023 1:18 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>; Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; 'Felix Flentge' <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>; <a href="mailto:keithlscott@gmail.com">keithlscott@gmail.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b> Gao, Jay L (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov">jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; Richard, Nate J (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov">nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>All,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>A quick update to the draft LTP corrigendum with a few more items to make sure some of the issues being brought up in this email chain don’t fall through the cracks. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Also, a minor note on Scott’s comment that “<i>the arrival of the first segment of the next “green” block is a simpler and perhaps more accurate (configuration-free) means of determining that it is time to deliver the current block</i>”: How does the receiving LTP engine handle the very last LTP block of a pass? Without a timer, would it ever be released to the application? I hate to add new timers, but I do not see how to get around it in this this corner case.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Marc Sanchez Net (332H)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:gray'>Telecommunications Engineer</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:gray'>Jet Propulsion Laboratory<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:gray'>Cell:</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222'> </span><a href="mailto:(617)%20953-7977"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0563C1'>(617) 953-7977</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0070C0'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:gray'>|</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0070C0'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:gray'>Email:</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222'> </span><a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</span></a><span style='font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a> <<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:13 AM<br><b>To:</b> Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; 'Felix Flentge' <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>>; Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H) <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> Gao, Jay L (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov">jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; Richard, Nate J (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov">nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Guys, a thought on this.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>In “red” transmission you expect out-of-order segment arrival on a routine basis, because every retransmitted bundle will arrive out of order. There are timers in the protocol to support the operation of the retransmission procedures.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>In “green” transmission you cannot have out-of-order segment arrival if you size your blocks in such a way that each block is transmitted in a single segment. I believe users will typically adopt this model, as “green” data will normally be data for which minimized delay is more important than reliability (otherwise they would use “red” transmission).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>In “green” transmission where the blocks are large enough to require transmission in multiple segments you have to wait for an entire block to arrive – or until you are confident that any missing segments were actually lost rather than simply forwarded out of order – before delivering the contents of the block. But there’s no re-transmission to avoid, because the transmission is “green”, right? If you wanted retransmission you would have used “red”.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>So in that event I would suggest that the arrival of the first segment of the next “green” block is a simpler and perhaps more accurate (configuration-free) means of determining that it is time to deliver the current block – complete or incomplete – and let the application figure out what to do about the missing data.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Scott<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 30, 2023 7:54 AM<br><b>To:</b> Felix Flentge <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>>; <a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>; Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H) <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> Gao, Jay L (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov">jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; Richard, Nate J (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov">nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks Felix – <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Agreed - A statement warning about how implementations should be wary of out-of-order deliveries would be useful in the corrigendum..<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>regards,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Leigh<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Felix Flentge <</span><a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'>Felix.Flentge@esa.int</span></a><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>><br><b>Date: </b>Monday, May 29, 2023 at 11:47 PM<br><b>To: </b>"Torgerson, Jordan L (332M)" <</span><a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'>jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</span></a><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>>, "</span><a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'>sburleig.sb@gmail.com</span></a><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>" <</span><a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'>sburleig.sb@gmail.com</span></a><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>>, "Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H)" <</span><a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'>marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</span></a><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>>, "'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN'" <</span><a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'>sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>><br><b>Cc: </b>"Gao, Jay L (US 332C)" <</span><a href="mailto:jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'>jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov</span></a><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>>, "Richard, Nate J (US 332C)" <</span><a href="mailto:nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'>nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov</span></a><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>><br><b>Subject: </b>RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Hi Leigh,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Yes, we also have systematic out-of-order in EO or L2 missions as different physical channels may be used (with maybe different rates and different PDU sizes). With ‘implementation issue’ I don’t mean that it is not important but I would like to avoid making it normative as we want to avoid ‘changing the standard’ which would require interop testing.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>By any means, we should have a statement that in case you may have out-of-order delivery it is recommended to implement timer to wait for out-of-order segments to avoid re-transmission (we will add a similar statement to CFDP for the next release).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Felix<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b>From:</b> Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 25, 2023 6:22 PM<br><b>To:</b> Felix Flentge <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>>; <a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>; Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H) <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> Gao, Jay L (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov">jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; Richard, Nate J (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov">nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Thanks Felix – <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>One comment is that in deep space use of DTN, we would expect that out-of-order delivery would be the rule, rather than the exception – if it takes 40 min RTT to recover a missing segment from Mars, waiting for it to ensure in-order delivery to some application would make ops impossible. (One must design one’s applications to be “aware” of the operational environment of course..)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>We haven’t used both LTP red/green at the same time in our testing and real-world ops as far as I know, but I suspect that recommending that red and green be in different sessions would be a good idea, if nothing else but to make troubleshooting easier! (Nate and Jay may have some thoughts based on our lunar ops with KPLO so I cc:d them..)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>regards<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Leigh<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Felix Flentge <</span><a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'>Felix.Flentge@esa.int</span></a><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>><br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 4:56 AM<br><b>To: </b>"</span><a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'>sburleig.sb@gmail.com</span></a><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>" <</span><a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'>sburleig.sb@gmail.com</span></a><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>>, "Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H)" <</span><a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'>marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</span></a><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>>, "'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN'" <</span><a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'>sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>><br><b>Cc: </b>"Torgerson, Jordan L (332M)" <</span><a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'>jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</span></a><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>><br><b>Subject: </b>[EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB>I agree with the modifications below.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB>Some additional points:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>I would propose to also deprecate Service Data Aggregation (it is currently mandatory). Unless, I am overlooking something, it is not an interoperable mechanism as there is no generic way to determine the length of a client data capsule. Also, for BP/LTP the updated BP standard will describe an aggregation mechanism (CBOR length information + bundle IIRC).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Should we discourage use of mixed sessions (on the other hand LTP green is optional anyway)?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>For the two additional issues, we could add that this is an implementation issue and that implementation may want to introduce these additional timers in case they (routinely) expect out-of-order delivery<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB>Felix<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><b>From:</b> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>sburleig.sb--- via SIS-DTN<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 18, 2023 1:23 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H)' <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> 'Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C)' <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>Marc, FWIW, I agree about deprecating LTP security and I am likewise skeptical that adding more timers is a good idea; that sounds like a way to work around a design element that hasn’t been thought through completely.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>Scott<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><b>From:</b> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H) via SIS-DTN<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2023 7:05 PM<br><b>To:</b> Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'>All,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'>Please find attached a new version of the LTP corrigendum with some modifications including:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='color:black'>Comparison between LTP and "the new protocol" has been reduced. This in part motivated by the fact that we have demonstrated ~4 Gbps rates with ION's LTP implementation, which is more than sufficient for deep space links (e.g., even in future trunk lines between Earth and Mars, data rates of 4 Gbps are never exceeded).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='color:black'>I have added two possible additions to the technical corrigendum based on work done by Brian and people at GRC. They are all optional (MAY) statements and I believe can be implemented without additional managed parameters (and timers).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='color:black'>Brian has commented on two additional issues (see </span><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/22__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33vk9LEw4$" title="https://github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/22">here</a><span style='color:black'> and </span><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/24__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33uBoiHHY$" title="https://github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/24">here</a><span style='color:black'>), but those seem to require additional timers that would need to be managed, so I am unconvinced it is worth the extra complexity. Brian, please correct me if I am wrong.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'>Finally, I think the note at the beginning of Section 3.9 of the current CCSDS LTP spec should be modified to explicitly state that LTP security should not be used and, instead, implementers should rely on security mechanisms provided by other parts of the CCSDS protocol stack, be it SDLS or BPSec. Thoughts on this point? <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div style='margin-top:12.0pt;margin-bottom:12.0pt;min-width: 424px' id="LPBorder_GTaHR0cHM6Ly9naXRodWIuY29tL25hc2EvSERUTi9pc3N1ZXMvMjQ."><table class=MsoNormalTable border=1 cellspacing=4 cellpadding=0 width="100%" style='width:100.0%;margin-left:1.0in;border:solid #C8C8C8 1.0pt'><tr><td valign=top style='border:none;padding:9.0pt 27.0pt 9.0pt 9.0pt'><div style='margin-right:9.0pt;overflow:hidden' id=LPImageContainer765850><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/24__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33uBoiHHY$" target="_blank"><span style='border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in;text-decoration:none'><img border=0 width=240 height=120 style='width:2.5in;height:1.25in' id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:~WRD0000.jpg" alt="Image removed by sender."></span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></td><td width="50%" valign=top style='width:50.48%;border:none;padding:9.0pt 27.0pt 9.0pt 9.0pt'><div style='margin-right:6.0pt;margin-bottom:9.0pt' id=LPTitle765850><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/24__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33uBoiHHY$" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Light",sans-serif;text-decoration:none'>Defer data retransmission with out-of-order report segments · Issue #24 · nasa/HDTN</span></a><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Light",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-right:6.0pt;margin-bottom:9.0pt;max-height: 100px;overflow:hidden' id=LPDescription765850><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#666666'>When the network is causing out-of-order segment reception it is possible that one or more synchronous reception reports are received either out-of-order or within a short time window, possibly fol...<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id=LPMetadata765850><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#A6A6A6'>github.com<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></td></tr></table></div></div><table class=MsoNormalTable border=1 cellspacing=4 cellpadding=0 width="100%" style='width:100.0%;margin-left:1.0in;border:solid #C8C8C8 1.0pt'><tr><td valign=top style='border:none;padding:9.0pt 27.0pt 9.0pt 9.0pt'><div style='margin-right:9.0pt;overflow:hidden' id=LPImageContainer694819><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/22__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33vk9LEw4$" target="_blank"><span style='border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in;text-decoration:none'><img border=0 width=240 height=120 style='width:2.5in;height:1.25in' id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:~WRD0000.jpg" alt="Image removed by sender."></span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></td><td width="50%" valign=top style='width:50.48%;border:none;padding:9.0pt 27.0pt 9.0pt 9.0pt'><div style='margin-right:6.0pt;margin-bottom:9.0pt' id=LPTitle694819><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/22__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33vk9LEw4$" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Light",sans-serif;text-decoration:none'>Defer synchronous reception report with out-of-order data segments · Issue #22 · nasa/HDTN</span></a><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Light",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-right:6.0pt;margin-bottom:9.0pt;max-height: 100px;overflow:hidden' id=LPDescription694819><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#666666'>When red part data is segmented and delivered to the receiving engine out-of-order, the checkpoint(s) and EORP can be received before the earlier-in-block data segments. If a synchronous report is ...<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id=LPMetadata694819><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#A6A6A6'>github.com<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></td></tr></table></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id=Signature><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>Marc Sanchez Net (332H)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:gray'>Telecommunications Engineer</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in;background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:gray'>Jet Propulsion Laboratory</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in;background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:gray'>Cell:</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222'> </span><a href="mailto:(617)%20953-7977"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>(617) 953-7977</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0070C0'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:gray'>|</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0070C0'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:gray'>Email:</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222'> </span><a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB>This message is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. 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