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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks Felix – <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Agreed - A statement warning about how implementations should be wary of out-of-order deliveries would be useful in the corrigendum..<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Leigh<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Felix Flentge <Felix.Flentge@esa.int><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, May 29, 2023 at 11:47 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>"Torgerson, Jordan L (332M)" <jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov>, "sburleig.sb@gmail.com" <sburleig.sb@gmail.com>, "Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H)" <marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov>, "'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN'" <sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"Gao, Jay L (US 332C)" <jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov>, "Richard, Nate J (US 332C)" <nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov><br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Hi Leigh,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Yes, we also have systematic out-of-order in EO or L2 missions as different physical channels may be used (with maybe different rates and different PDU sizes). With ‘implementation issue’ I don’t mean that it is not important
but I would like to avoid making it normative as we want to avoid ‘changing the standard’ which would require interop testing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">By any means, we should have a statement that in case you may have out-of-order delivery it is recommended to implement timer to wait for out-of-order segments to avoid re-transmission (we will add a similar statement
to CFDP for the next release).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Felix<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b>From:</b> Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C) <jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 25, 2023 6:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Felix Flentge <Felix.Flentge@esa.int>; sburleig.sb@gmail.com; Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H) <marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gao, Jay L (US 332C) <jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov>; Richard, Nate J (US 332C) <nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Thanks Felix – <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">One comment is that in deep space use of DTN, we would expect that out-of-order delivery would be the rule, rather than the exception – if it takes 40 min RTT to recover a missing segment from Mars, waiting for
it to ensure in-order delivery to some application would make ops impossible. (One must design one’s applications to be “aware” of the operational environment of course..)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">We haven’t used both LTP red/green at the same time in our testing and real-world ops as far as I know, but I suspect that recommending that red and green be in different sessions would be a good idea, if nothing
else but to make troubleshooting easier! (Nate and Jay may have some thoughts based on our lunar ops with KPLO so I cc:d them..)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">regards<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Leigh<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Felix Flentge <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 4:56 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>>, "Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H)" <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>,
"'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN'" <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"Torgerson, Jordan L (332M)" <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB">I agree with the modifications below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB">Some additional points:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-GB">I would propose to also deprecate Service Data Aggregation (it is currently mandatory). Unless, I am overlooking something, it is not an interoperable mechanism as there is no generic way to determine the length
of a client data capsule. Also, for BP/LTP the updated BP standard will describe an aggregation mechanism (CBOR length information + bundle IIRC).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-GB">Should we discourage use of mixed sessions (on the other hand LTP green is optional anyway)?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-GB">For the two additional issues, we could add that this is an implementation issue and that implementation may want to introduce these additional timers in case they (routinely) expect out-of-order delivery<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB">Felix<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><b>From:</b> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>sburleig.sb--- via SIS-DTN<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 18, 2023 1:23 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H)' <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C)' <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">Marc, FWIW, I agree about deprecating LTP security and I am likewise skeptical that adding more timers is a good idea; that sounds like a way to work around a design element that hasn’t been thought through completely.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">Scott<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><b>From:</b> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H) via SIS-DTN<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2023 7:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="color:black">All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="color:black">Please find attached a new version of the LTP corrigendum with some modifications including:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="color:black">Comparison between LTP and "the new protocol" has been reduced. This in part motivated by the fact that we have demonstrated ~4 Gbps rates with ION's LTP implementation, which is more than sufficient
for deep space links (e.g., even in future trunk lines between Earth and Mars, data rates of 4 Gbps are never exceeded).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="color:black">I have added two possible additions to the technical corrigendum based on work done by Brian and people at GRC. They are all optional (MAY) statements and I believe can be implemented without additional
managed parameters (and timers).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="color:black">Brian has commented on two additional issues (see
<a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/22__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33vk9LEw4$" title="https://github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/22">
here</a> and <a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/24__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33uBoiHHY$" title="https://github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/24">
here</a>), but those seem to require additional timers that would need to be managed, so I am unconvinced it is worth the extra complexity. Brian, please correct me if I am wrong.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="color:black">Finally, I think the note at the beginning of Section 3.9 of the current CCSDS LTP spec should be modified to explicitly state that LTP security should not be used and, instead, implementers
should rely on security mechanisms provided by other parts of the CCSDS protocol stack, be it SDLS or BPSec. Thoughts on this point? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/24__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33uBoiHHY$" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none"><span style="color:blue;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in"><img border="0" width="240" height="120" style="width:2.5in;height:1.25in" id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:~WRD0000.jpg" alt="Image removed by sender."></span></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Light",sans-serif"><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/24__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33uBoiHHY$" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration:none">Defer
data retransmission with out-of-order report segments · Issue #24 · nasa/HDTN</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div style="margin-right:6.0pt;margin-bottom:9.0pt;max-height: 100px;overflow:hidden" id="LPDescription765850">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#666666">When the network is causing out-of-order segment reception it is possible that one or more synchronous reception reports are received either out-of-order or
within a short time window, possibly fol...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#A6A6A6">github.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/22__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33vk9LEw4$" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none"><span style="color:blue;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in"><img border="0" width="240" height="120" style="width:2.5in;height:1.25in" id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:~WRD0000.jpg" alt="Image removed by sender."></span></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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synchronous reception report with out-of-order data segments · Issue #22 · nasa/HDTN</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#666666">When red part data is segmented and delivered to the receiving engine out-of-order, the checkpoint(s) and EORP can be received before the earlier-in-block data
segments. If a synchronous report is ...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#A6A6A6">github.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="color:black">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">Marc Sanchez Net (332H)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Telecommunications Engineer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in;background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Jet Propulsion Laboratory</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in;background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Cell:</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="mailto:(617)%20953-7977">(617)
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</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">|</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0070C0">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Email:</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"> </span><span style="color:black"><a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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