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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi Leigh,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Yes, we also have systematic out-of-order in EO or L2 missions as different physical channels may be used (with maybe different rates and different PDU sizes). With ‘implementation issue’ I don’t
mean that it is not important but I would like to avoid making it normative as we want to avoid ‘changing the standard’ which would require interop testing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">By any means, we should have a statement that in case you may have out-of-order delivery it is recommended to implement timer to wait for out-of-order segments to avoid re-transmission (we will add
a similar statement to CFDP for the next release).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Felix<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C) <jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 25, 2023 6:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Felix Flentge <Felix.Flentge@esa.int>; sburleig.sb@gmail.com; Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H) <marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gao, Jay L (US 332C) <jay.l.gao@jpl.nasa.gov>; Richard, Nate J (US 332C) <nathaniel.j.richard@jpl.nasa.gov><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks Felix –
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">One comment is that in deep space use of DTN, we would expect that out-of-order delivery would be the rule, rather than the exception – if it takes 40 min RTT to recover a missing segment from
Mars, waiting for it to ensure in-order delivery to some application would make ops impossible. (One must design one’s applications to be “aware” of the operational environment of course..)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">We haven’t used both LTP red/green at the same time in our testing and real-world ops as far as I know, but I suspect that recommending that red and green be in different sessions would be a
good idea, if nothing else but to make troubleshooting easier! (Nate and Jay may have some thoughts based on our lunar ops with KPLO so I cc:d them..)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Leigh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Felix Flentge <<a href="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 4:56 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:sburleig.sb@gmail.com">sburleig.sb@gmail.com</a>>, "Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H)" <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>,
"'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN'" <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"Torgerson, Jordan L (332M)" <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[EXTERNAL] RE: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">I agree with the modifications below.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Some additional points:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>I would propose to also deprecate Service Data Aggregation (it is currently mandatory). Unless, I am overlooking something, it is not an interoperable mechanism as there is no generic way to determine the length of a client data
capsule. Also, for BP/LTP the updated BP standard will describe an aggregation mechanism (CBOR length information + bundle IIRC).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>Should we discourage use of mixed sessions (on the other hand LTP green is optional anyway)?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>For the two additional issues, we could add that this is an implementation issue and that implementation may want to introduce these additional timers in case they (routinely) expect out-of-order delivery<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Felix<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>sburleig.sb--- via SIS-DTN<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 18, 2023 1:23 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H)' <<a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; 'Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN' <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C)' <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Marc, FWIW, I agree about deprecating LTP security and I am likewise skeptical that adding more timers is a good idea; that sounds like a way to work around a design element that hasn’t been
thought through completely.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Scott<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Sanchez Net, Marc (US 332H) via SIS-DTN<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2023 7:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dr. Keith L Scott via SIS-DTN <<a href="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Torgerson, J. Leigh (US 332C) <<a href="mailto:jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov">jordan.l.torgerson@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Sis-dtn] New version of LTP Corrigendum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Please find attached a new version of the LTP corrigendum with some modifications including:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo5">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Comparison between LTP and "the new protocol" has been reduced. This in part motivated by the fact that we have demonstrated ~4 Gbps rates with ION's LTP implementation, which is more than
sufficient for deep space links (e.g., even in future trunk lines between Earth and Mars, data rates of 4 Gbps are never exceeded).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo5">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">I have added two possible additions to the technical corrigendum based on work done by Brian and people at GRC. They are all optional (MAY) statements and I believe can be implemented without
additional managed parameters (and timers).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo5">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Brian has commented on two additional issues (see
<a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/22__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33vk9LEw4$" title="https://github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/22">
here</a> and <a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/24__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33uBoiHHY$" title="https://github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/24">
here</a>), but those seem to require additional timers that would need to be managed, so I am unconvinced it is worth the extra complexity. Brian, please correct me if I am wrong.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Finally, I think the note at the beginning of Section 3.9 of the current CCSDS LTP spec should be modified to explicitly state that LTP security should not be used and, instead,
implementers should rely on security mechanisms provided by other parts of the CCSDS protocol stack, be it SDLS or BPSec. Thoughts on this point? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/24__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33uBoiHHY$" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="240" height="120" style="width:2.5in;height:1.25in" id="_x0000_i1026" src="https://opengraph.githubassets.com/20650d8341084e048ce0b347834a0c8d441c40acab81b1ef4c075e8770078d33/nasa/HDTN/issues/24"></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Light",sans-serif"><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/24__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33uBoiHHY$" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration:none">Defer
data retransmission with out-of-order report segments · Issue #24 · nasa/HDTN</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div style="margin-right:6.0pt;margin-bottom:9.0pt;max-height: 100px;overflow:hidden" id="LPDescription765850">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#666666">When the network is causing out-of-order segment reception it is possible that one or more synchronous reception reports are received either out-of-order or
within a short time window, possibly fol...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#A6A6A6">github.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/22__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33vk9LEw4$" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="240" height="120" style="width:2.5in;height:1.25in" id="_x0000_i1025" src="https://opengraph.githubassets.com/557790465f865a493213b66289d08ffd17c4b98d48ae91ec6ef62866fa1ceac9/nasa/HDTN/issues/22"></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Light",sans-serif"><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/github.com/nasa/HDTN/issues/22__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J3wEpyPHlAiGcXO0VDc8uO1zb9BOrpYLw3dw6BHPigpmcy0Q4f8gxX6hHLnQOqg_AVxEg_MYrByNRr1urhAp-KViTuP33vk9LEw4$" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration:none">Defer
synchronous reception report with out-of-order data segments · Issue #22 · nasa/HDTN</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div style="margin-right:6.0pt;margin-bottom:9.0pt;max-height: 100px;overflow:hidden" id="LPDescription694819">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#666666">When red part data is segmented and delivered to the receiving engine out-of-order, the checkpoint(s) and EORP can be received before the earlier-in-block data
segments. If a synchronous report is ...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#A6A6A6">github.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Marc Sanchez Net (332H)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Telecommunications Engineer</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt;background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Jet Propulsion Laboratory</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt;background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Cell:</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="mailto:(617)%20953-7977">(617)
953-7977</a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0070C0">
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">|</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0070C0">
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Email:</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"><a href="mailto:marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">marc.sanchez.net@jpl.nasa.gov</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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