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<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Hi, guys. I believe w</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">e are actually talking about two distinct things here.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">It is</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">true that</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">positive ACKs are required. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">P</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">ositive acknowledgments</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">turn off the retransmission timers for checkpoints, report segments, and cancellation segments</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Separately, the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">individual "claims" within a report segment might be either positive or negative</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">I</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">agree with Carlo, but</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">think</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">Cheol is correct that negative claims</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">can</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">yield a small overhead advantage</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">. F</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">or any</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">LTP</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">transmission</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">whose</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">scope</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> is from block offset</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> P to Q in which there are N gaps:</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Symbol">·<FONT FACE="Courier New"> </FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">If one of the gaps begins at P and</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">another of the gaps ends at Q, then the report must contain</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> either</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> N negative claims or</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">N - 1 positive claims.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Symbol">·<FONT FACE="Courier New"> </FONT></FONT> <FONT FACE="Calibri">If no gap begins at P and no gap ends at Q, then the report must contain</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> either</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> N ne</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">gative claims or N + 1 positive claims.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Symbol">·<FONT FACE="Courier New"> </FONT></FONT> <FONT FACE="Calibri">If one of the gaps begins</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">at P or one of the gaps ends at Q, but not both, then the report must contain</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> either</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> N negative claims or N positive claims.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">I would</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">expect the second of these cases to occur more frequently than the other</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> two</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">, assuming AOS/LOS</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">events don't occur during the transmission.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">I don't see how either negative or positive claims processing is simpler or</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">easier, though; the representations are equivalent. Ease of implementation would</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">depend strictly on the manner in which</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">segment</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">information is stored and</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">accessed at the sending a</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">nd receiving ends of the transmission. I personally found positive claims to be simple</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">r</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> to work with.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Scott</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: SIS-DTN <sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org> On Behalf Of Carlo Caini via SIS-DTN<BR>
Sent: Monday, April 4, 2022 5:47 AM<BR>
To: "</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">구철회</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">" <chkoo@kari.re.kr>; Keltik <dstanton@keltik.co.uk><BR>
Cc: sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<BR>
Subject: Re: [Sis-dtn] Positive reception claim vs. Negative reception claim in LTP Report Segment preparation and processing</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Dear Cheol,</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> let me consider an LTP block with for example 20 non contigous losses, i.e. 20 gaps. The corresponding RS would include either 20 positive claims (if you have a gap at the start or at the end of the block) or 21 cl;aims otherwise.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">With NAK claim you would need 20 megative claims. Is that so different?</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">You can say that it is easier to resend what has been explicietely said is missing, true; however, on the rx side it is easier to say what has been received than what is missing; all things considered, I cannot see any signifiocant advantage by excplicietely declaring gaps instead of received chunks.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Yours,</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> Carlo</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">________________________________________</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Da: SIS-DTN [sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org] per conto di "</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">구철회</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">" via SIS-DTN [sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org]</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Inviato: lunedì 4 aprile 2022 14:20</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">A: Keltik</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Cc:</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> </SPAN><A HREF="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Oggetto: Re: [Sis-dtn] Positive reception claim vs. Negative reception claim in LTP Report Segment preparation and processing</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">I think current LTP spec has positive ACK and negative ACK both. So if it is reversed the result will be the same.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Let me bring below example again. To provide claim inforamtion for retransmission of block 1000-2999,</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"><<original-positive ACK>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">lower bound = 0</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">upper bound = 7000</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">negative reception claim count = 2</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">offset = 0 <-- Positive ACK</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">length = 1000 <-- Positive ACK</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">offset = 3000 <-- Positive ACK</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">length = 4000 <-- Positive ACK</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">* Negative ACKs are hidden in separated Positive ACKs.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"><<negative ACK>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">lower bound = 0 <-- Positive ACK</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">upper bound = 7000 <-- Positive ACK</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">negative reception claim count = 1</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">offset = 1000 <-- Negative ACK</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">length = 2000 <-- Negative ACK</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">I think the latter case can work too! Or am I missing something?</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Cheol</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">---------</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">원본</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">메일</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> ---------</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">보낸사람</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> : Keltik <</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><A HREF="mailto:dstanton@keltik.co.uk"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">dstanton@keltik.co.uk</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">받는사람</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> : Vint Cerf <</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><A HREF="mailto:vint@google.com"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">vint@google.com</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">참조</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> : <</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><A HREF="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Felix.Flentge@esa.int</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">>, <</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><A HREF="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">>, "</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">구철회</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">" <</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><A HREF="mailto:chkoo@kari.re.kr"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">chkoo@kari.re.kr</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">받은날짜</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> : 2022-04-04 (</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">월</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">) 19:53:46</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">제목</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> : Re: [Sis-dtn] Positive reception claim vs. Negative reception claim in LTP Report Segment preparation and processing Scott Burleigh and I went through this developing CFDP/LTP three decades ago. Whilst Negative ACKs can be very efficient for bulk data in the delay/disruption environment, protocol directives such as initiation, metadata exchange, end of data, end of transaction, pause, resume etc require positive ACKs. Otherwise the state machines will never close.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Dai</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Sent from my iPhone</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">On 4 Apr 2022, at 11:09, Vint Cerf via SIS-DTN <</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><A HREF="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">> wrote:</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">a system based solely on negative acks will not work.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">v</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">On Mon, Apr 4, 2022 at 6:08 AM Felix Flentge via SIS-DTN <</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><A HREF="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">>> wrote:</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Ah, yes, of course you are right.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">We will look into the negative ACK as part of our LTPv2 prototyping activity.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Regards,</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Felix</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>
<BR>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">From: "</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">구철회</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">" <</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><A HREF="mailto:chkoo@kari.re.kr<mailto:chkoo@kari.re.kr"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">chkoo@kari.re.kr<mailto:chkoo@kari.re.kr</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">To: <</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><A HREF="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int<mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Felix.Flentge@esa.int<mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Cc: "</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><A HREF="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org>"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">" <</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><A HREF="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Date: 04/04/2022 11:58</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Subject: RE: Re: [Sis-dtn] Positive reception claim vs. Negative reception claim in LTP Report Segment preparation and processing</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Sent by: </FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> </SPAN><A HREF="mailto:chkoo@kari.re.kr<mailto:chkoo@kari.re.kr"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">chkoo@kari.re.kr<mailto:chkoo@kari.re.kr</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">________________________________</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>
<BR>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Hi Felix,</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">I think current LTP spec quite works well with negative claim also. Consider below reception claim according to the LTP spec but negative claim.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">lower bound = 0</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">upper bound = 7000</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">negative reception claim count = 1</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">offset = 1000</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">length = 2000</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">it means a receiver is requesting block of segements which starts at 1000 and length is 2000, i.e., 1000 ~ 2999, for retransmission.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">A sender can safely remove 2 blocks, i.e., 0 - 999 and 3000 - 7000. I think it is simpler, lower overhead and *importantly* easier to calculate (acutally no painful for localizing the target segment position).</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Cheol</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">---------</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">원본</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">메일</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> ---------</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">보낸사람</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> : <</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><A HREF="mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int<mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Felix.Flentge@esa.int<mailto:Felix.Flentge@esa.int</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">받는사람</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> : "</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">구철회</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">" <</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><A HREF="mailto:chkoo@kari.re.kr<mailto:chkoo@kari.re.kr"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">chkoo@kari.re.kr<mailto:chkoo@kari.re.kr</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">참조</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> : "</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><A HREF="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org>"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">" <</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><A HREF="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">받은날짜</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> : 2022-04-04 (</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">월</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">) 17:40:24</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">제목</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> : Re: [Sis-dtn] Positive reception claim vs. Negative reception claim in LTP Report Segment preparation and processing Hi Cheol,</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">interesting question. One thing I can think of is that the positive claims would allow you to free memory earlier while for negative claims you need to wait until the end of a session.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Regards,</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Felix</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>
<BR>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">From: "</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Malgun Gothic">구철회</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> via SIS-DTN" <</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><A HREF="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">To: "</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><A HREF="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org>"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">" <</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><A HREF="mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn@mailman.ccsds.org</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Date: 04/04/2022 10:15</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Subject: [Sis-dtn] Positive reception claim vs. Negative reception claim in LTP Report Segment preparation and processing</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Sent by: "SIS-DTN" <</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><A HREF="mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org"><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:sis-dtn-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">________________________________</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Greetings,</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>
<BR>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">This is Cheol. I am developing an LTP reference implementation. During reading the LTP specification (RFC-5326), the preparation of reception claim in Report Segment makes me confusing about why it is positive claim not negative claim for segments that were not received successfully (i.e., NAK).</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>
<BR>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">For reference, CFDP’s NAK PDU has the negative claim structure when it is requested to report missing PDUs. Does anyone know about the background of choosing the positive claim for NAK operation in LTP?</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">I think negative claim is simpler and more efficient in terms of overhead for sender and receiver both.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">I like to listen experts’ opinion on LTP operation and honestly hope it to be changed in newly coming LTP spec.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>
<BR>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Cheol</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT FACE="Calibri">_______________________________________________</FONT></SPAN></P>
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