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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-GB link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoPlainText>Hi Don and others in MOIMS-DAI<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>It looks as if we can reach a conclusion – see below for some general suggestions. <span style='color:black'>I will try to suggest something specific on the review site.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Regards<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>..David<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='mso-fareast-language:EN-GB'>-----Original Message-----<br>From: MOIMS-DAI <moims-dai-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org> On Behalf Of D or C Sawyer<br>Sent: 13 July 2018 14:18<br>To: MOIMS DAI List <moims-dai@mailman.ccsds.org><br>Subject: Re: [Moims-dai] Telecon Notes?</span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Hi David, et al.,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>I mostly agree with your comments, but see below.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> On Jul 9, 2018, at 7:12 AM, David Giaretta <<a href="mailto:david@giaretta.org"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>david@giaretta.org</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> Hi all<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> I missed the call on which these notes report, but I must make a few comments which I am sure I would have made in the meeting.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> In summary Don's arguments about the Information Model seem to derive from examples of some specific Data Objects, without explicit consideration of the Designated Community, which I argue is misleading, and can be addressed by adding text to the standard to address such "edge cases", as discussed next.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>During the subject telecon it was mentioned that a CDO with no needed Representation Information depended on the Designated Community. The point of the discussion was to note that this is a real example. It could be thought of as an ‘edge case’, as you say, or perhaps the modeling and text should be improved to bring it into compliance.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='color:black'>Yes we definitely should add text to explain this, perhaps in the discussion in section 4.2.1.3 Representation Information.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> The argument about whether or not a Data Object needs Representation Information in order to be understood is misleading in that, as I responded in a previous email, it depends on the Designated Community. In other words, if the Data Object is a piece of paper written in English, and members of the Designated Community can read and understand English then there is no need for an explicit English dictionary because the Designated Community's Knowledge Base includes that. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> However, if the Designated Community were to be defined as readers of Chinese then Representation Information such as an English Dictionary would be needed. So, if one claims that this piece of paper does not need Representation Information then that is in the context of a Repository's definition of a specific Designated Community. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> So in general modelling terms the OAIS Information Model is right - a Data Object needs Representation Information in order to be used/understood. However there may be some specific instances where, for a specific Designated Community, explicit Representation Information is not needed.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> In modelling terms, I would regard cases such as English written on paper to be read by English readers as an "edge case" and to be consistent in such edge cases one should say that the Representation Information is the statement that "for the specific Designated Community no additional explicit Representation Information is currently needed". As far as I can see this would make the model complete and consistent. We could add some wording to the discussion of Representation Information and Designated Community to make this clear.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> In terms of the idea of OAIS being only a "communications framework" - yes it is that, especially the Functional Model, but it also provides something more, namely guidance of what one needs in order to preserve digitally encoded information, and OAIS lays these out in terms of conformance. Thus, the repository needs an AIP with all its components; it needs to undertake all the Mandatory Responsibilities. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Yes on the Mandatory Responsibilities, but on the ‘AIP with all its components’ there is considerable ambiguity. The information modeling conformance only addressed the Information Object and the Information Package as given in Section 2.2. The Information Package is broken into SIPs, AIPs, and DIPs, It is clear that SIPs and DIPs may not contain all the Representation Information or PDI. The implication (not stated) is that the AIP does contain all the Representation Information and PDI. Certainly it does conceptually. However the conformance section (1.4) addresses an actual Archive. The example above raises the conformance issue for an Archive that only preserves hardcopy documents, with no Representation Information, yet still fully understandable to its Designated Community, Maybe it also finds it doesn’t need all the PDI. Can it still claim to be OAIS conformant? I would say ‘yes’ as long as it is making a reasonable argument for not having all the components of the section 2.2 information models. Note also that none of the modeling in section 4.2 is required for OAIS RM conformance. Given that OAIS RM conformance has sometime been a topic of concern to others as well as to this working group, I recommend it be clarified.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='color:black'>I agree – we should make it clear that 2.2 and 4.2 are both included in the Mandatory Responsibilities and also in the Conformance section. In section 2.2 we say “While formal modeling of information is provided in section 4, some key concepts are provided in this subsection” but this should be expanded also.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> I realise that to some readers all this may seem like a very abstruse, uninteresting discussion. However, it IS important because there will be times when repository staff will come across puzzling cases and we need to make sure, as far as humanly possible, that OAIS provides useful, correct and consistent guidance when read carefully.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Yes, we should want the OAIS RM to be as clear and unambiguous as we can make it.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='color:black'>Yes I think we have relied on some implicit connections that should be made explicit.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Cheers-<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> Hope that helps<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> ..David<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> From: MOIMS-DAI <<a href="mailto:moims-dai-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>moims-dai-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a>> On Behalf Of John Garrett<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> Sent: 07 July 2018 05:55<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> To: 'MOIMS-Data Archive Interoperability' <<a href="mailto:moims-dai@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>moims-dai@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a>><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> Subject: [Moims-dai] FW: Telecon Notes?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> From: Don Sawyer [<a href="mailto:topcottageguys@gmail.com"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>mailto:topcottageguys@gmail.com</span></a>] On Behalf Of D or C Sawyer<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 8:18 AM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> To: John Garrett <<a href="mailto:garrett@his.com"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>garrett@his.com</span></a>><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> Cc: Hughes, John S (398B) <<a href="mailto:John.S.Hughes@jpl.nasa.gov"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>John.S.Hughes@jpl.nasa.gov</span></a>>; Mark Conrad <<a href="mailto:Mark.Conrad@nara.gov"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>Mark.Conrad@nara.gov</span></a>><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> Subject: Re: Telecon Notes?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> Hi John,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> I’ve made a few comments to your comments. I think our differing views are pretty clear. If you want to add some more comments, or not, I have no objections to your sending this out to the wider group.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> Cheers-<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> Don<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> MOIMS-DAI mailing list<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <a href="mailto:MOIMS-DAI@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>MOIMS-DAI@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>> <a href="https://mailman.ccsds.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/moims-dai"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>https://mailman.ccsds.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/moims-dai</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'>MOIMS-DAI mailing list<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'><a href="mailto:MOIMS-DAI@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>MOIMS-DAI@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt'><a href="https://mailman.ccsds.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/moims-dai"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>https://mailman.ccsds.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/moims-dai</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>