<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Helvetica;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;
color:black;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:#0563C1;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:#954F72;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph
{mso-style-priority:34;
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;
color:black;}
span.EmailStyle17
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D;}
span.apple-converted-space
{mso-style-name:apple-converted-space;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:434986254;
mso-list-type:hybrid;
mso-list-template-ids:-573265008 -981596170 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;}
@list l0:level1
{mso-level-start-at:0;
mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0D8;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Wingdings;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
@list l0:level2
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l0:level3
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0A7;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level4
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0B7;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level5
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l0:level6
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0A7;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level7
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0B7;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level8
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l0:level9
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0A7;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Wingdings;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0in;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0in;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Well, I seem to find myself in the position of being Vint’s devil’s advocate, so I guess I’ll continue. Not to imply that Vint is the devil. <o:p></o:p></span></a></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>Ø<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>In his discussion with us, Vint asserted that the success or failure of OAIS hinges on the existence of successful implementations,<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Somewhat disagree. His statements support he fact that OAIS is completely successful. <b>Digital preservation</b> fails without <b>both</b> OAIS and (in addition) successful implementations. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>Ø<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>analogous to the IETF philosophy of requiring demonstrations of protocol implementations prior to approval of RFCs as Internet standards.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>He did reference IETF RFCs as a success story, but when he mentioned demonstrations of protocol implementations, I thought he was referring to CCSDS’s requirement for implementations (not only of protocols) prior to any blue book approval. Regardless of which organization he was referring to, it applies to both, so there can’t be any issue that any implementation (normative, testable) must be prototyped before approval as a standard. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>Ø<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>I would maintain that the specific implementations, while they might help an organization to satisfy the requirements of ISO 16363, are not sufficient to demonstrate a repository's ability to safely, stably, and indefinitely maintain and preserve a body of digital data.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Vint wouldn’t disagree with that. Implementations aren’t sufficient without OAIS management processes and the associated audits. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>Ø<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Whether a warehouse uses Microsoft or Oracle software in pursuit of its business goals is essentially irrelevant.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>No issues with that or your banking example. To clarify, Vint wasn’t suggesting that we standardize an implementation of <b><i>an application</i></b>. His advocated implementation standard is for <b><i>whatever is required to access the data</i></b>, most likely with a different application. Most likely many years after the original application is no longer operable. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>Ø<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>However, for audit purposes, imposing a specific interoperability protocol as a solution to some felt need for more reliable (more reliable than what?) production of DIPs carries its own risks.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Vint was OK with OAIS and OAIS audits. He advocated an additional access/implementation standard. He didn’t advocate that the compliance with that implementation standard should be audited. Perhaps that’s still an open question that he left for us to figure out after we have a concept for that implementation standard. But most organizations don’t use audits, they use “gold standard” facilities to test protocols for compliance with a normative implementation standard. However, CCSDS is so poor that almost no other CCSDS standards have such a test facility. And as an aside, almost no other CCSDS standards have an audit process, either. But the point is… Vint was (in my opinion) perfectly OK with OAIS and OAIS audits. He suggested the implementation standard, but he didn’t suggest an implementation standard audit. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>Ø<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span></span><![endif]><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>converting an internal to an external inferface for managing the archived material would clearly open a window for deleterious accesses<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Within MOIMS, the SM&C group has a very layered architecture for their MO Services. For those services they use abstraction layers to convert an internal to an external interface as part of their core philosophy. Those services (permit me to minimize DAI for a moment) are spacecraft telemetry and command services, incredibly more critical (safety of human life) than mere archives laying on the ground. So if the problem of deleterious accesses can be fixed for realtime spacecraft control, I’m sure it can be fixed for archives. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>While on the MOIMS SM&C point, I wonder if the job of the implementation standard should be turned over to MOIMS-SM&C instead of MOIMS-DAI? I believe that SM&C actually has an archive access service on their radar screen as a future project. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>Ø<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>In closing, I do think that MOIMS-DAI should address the conceptual gap between Interoperable Implementations and Safe, Reliable, Long Term Digital Preservation.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Right on!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>Ø<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span></span><![endif]><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I think that Vint and MOIMS-DAI see different horizons when we look toward the future. I think his future is nearer than MOIMS-DAI's, and his concerns are more imminent and urgent.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Disagree, but I think I know where you got that impression... The “interoperability” discussion. I think Vint’s interoperability suggestion has two dimensions: Interoperability between current organizations and interoperability with future generations. While talking to DAI, I felt he was emphasizing the latter (future generations). But if you could kill two birds with one stone and have an elegant implementation standard for archive access for present and future, that would be even better. But at no time did I hear Vint restrict his goal of interoperability only to current organizations, excluding future generations. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>Ø<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>We want to make it possible for some Information Archaeologist in that far future to be able to access, but more importantly, interpret the bits that have been archived under OAIS conditions.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Right on. No conflict with Vint’s statements, right? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>Ø<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>But we must acknowledge that some will continue to implement long-term repositories while emphasizing short term goals like interoperability and fast access to DIPs.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>With both dimensions, interoperability between current organizations and interoperability with future generations, interoperability is not a short term goal. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Not sure if “fast access” implies something that I didn’t pick up on. It’s always better than slow access (for both current and future organizations). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>So, do I sound like Vint? Not nearly as smooth, I’m sure. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> -=- Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Mike Kearney<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Huntsville, Alabama, USA<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'> moims-dai-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org [mailto:moims-dai-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Terry Longstreth<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 6, 2016 12:20 AM<br><b>To:</b> MOIMS-Data Archive Ingestion <moims-dai@mailman.ccsds.org><br><b>Subject:</b> [Moims-dai] My thoughts on the meeting with Vint Cerf<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>This still isn't as good the original that disappeared from my new 'smart?' phone.  For one thing, it's much longer than my original intent.<br>Regards,<br>Terry <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>-- <br><img width=339 height=142 id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D18FCA.DA0BFEC0"><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>