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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Nestor, et al,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">I have an real issue with one of the statements made in your meeting minutes. This is under item 2, Other CESG Discussions, which states:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span lang="PT-BR" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">2. Other CESG discussions<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.8in;text-indent:-.3in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="PT-BR" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="PT-BR" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">CESG Poll conditions:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.1in;text-indent:-.35in;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="PT-BR" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="PT-BR" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Scope of conditions prior to Publication (including AD/DAD participation in Agency Reviews)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span lang="PT-BR" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">CESG suggests to the AD/DAD to minimize her/his conditions at time of CESG book publication polls. CESG members
have the opportunity to raise technical issues prior / during Agency Review(s)</span><span lang="PT-BR" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.1in;text-indent:-.35in;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="PT-BR" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Are conditions un-rejectable by definition for all CESG Polls?</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Conditions are not rejectable according to the YB, which contemplates a negotiation instance and possibly escalation if negotiation fails.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">CESG recommends to raise PIDs (Poll Item Discrepancy) at least for showstopper conditions during polls and identify conditions that are non showstopper as such.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.1in;text-indent:-.35in;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Discussion of CESG and AD responsibilities<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> CESG reaffirms the spirit of the Proc & Org YB related to the AD responsibilities
<span style="background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">(for maintaining and upholding the overall technical quality and consistency of the evolving set of CCSDS Recommended Standards and Practices)</span>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">The issue, as we discussed extensively during the CESG meeting, is that CESG members have specific roles and duties in regard assuring the technical quality of CCSDS documents. This was
discussed at length and I provided the set of materials (attached) extracted from the CCSDS Organization and Processes (A02.1-Y-4) that document those duties. My problem is that this wording in the minutes totally ignores the CESG responsibilities requiring
review of all published documents and again suggests that somehow CESG conditions should be "minimized" and just treated as agency inputs.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">As stated this is a total perversion of CESG responsibilities and it also, in essence, suggests that CESG inputs are just inputs from an agency instead of conditions placed by a member
of the CCSDS Engineering Steering Group with the express intent of ensuring consistency of the CCSDS standards (sec 2.3.2.2.d), and …<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">"</span><b><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">
</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Sec 2.3.2.3.a, “<u>maintaining and upholding the overall technical quality and consistency of the evolving set of CCSDS Recommended Standards and Practices</u>”</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">There is no expectation that members of CCSDS agencies will attend to these stated CESG technical responsibilities. These responsibilities are the expressly stated province of the CESG
and they must not be swept under the rug or minimized lest the quality of CCSDS standards, as a whole, will suffer. We already have far too many instances of CESG votes to "abstain, doesn't affect me" or "accept unconditionally", which signals, at least to
me, that these CESG responsibilities are being taken lightly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">I acknowledge that one of the other concerns we discussed was that of efficient production of standards. This is a concern, as is holding up review and publication for editorial "nits".
In fact, the addition in item 2 in this list, involving the adoption of a PIDs (Poll Item Discrepancy) for "showstopper conditions" was intended to make this distinction clear. I think that the "scope of conditions" in item 1 was really resolved by the introduction
of the PID and not by the notion that CESG inputs should be "minimized" or swept into the category of "agency inputs".<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">I would ask that you amend the minutes to reflect this actual outcome of the CESG discussion and not persist in promoting this "AD conditions may be treated as agency inputs" approach in
the future. The added clause in item 3 should also be added, since this was the specific topic that was discussed, not just random AD responsibilities such as proving meeting agendas.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">One last comment on this topic. During the reorganization we intentionally patterned our procedures and even the new organization on the Internet, particularly the Internet Engineering
Task Force (IETF) and the Internet Engineering Steering Board (IESG). Our working organization is equivalent to the IETF and the CESG is equivalent to the IESG. There are very many parallels in the CCSDS procedures and much of the wording in A02.1-Y-4 was
lifted directly from IETF documents.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Just yesterday Scott Burleigh pointed me to an excellent IETF document called the Tao of the IETF (<a href="https://www.ietf.org/tao.html)">https://www.ietf.org/tao.html)</a>. There is
one particular section I would draw your attention to now, which we might consider adopting in this context to augment the CCSDS procedures, from Sec 2.2.2:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">"</span>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">The ADs for a particular Area are expected to know more about the combined work of the WGs in that Area than anyone else. On the other hand, the entire IESG reviews each Internet-Draft that is proposed to become
an RFC. Any AD may record a "DISCUSS" ballot position against a draft if he or she has serious concerns. If these concerns cannot be resolved by discussion, an override procedure is defined such that at least two IESG members must express concerns before a
draft can be blocked from moving forward. These procedures help ensure that an AD's "pet project" doesn't make it onto the standards track if it will have a negative effect on the rest of the IETF protocols and that an AD's "pet peeve" cannot indefinitely
block something. "<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><br>
This is the IETF language, but AD == CCSDS AD and WG == CCSDS WGs. Similarly, IESG == CESG. I'm reluctant to suggest more "rules", but would offer for discussion in the CESG an approach patterned on this, as an augmentation to A02.1-Y-4 Polling process, Sec
5.3.5. Perhaps we could add the following to the clauses in sec 5.3.5.4.3 Conditional Approval.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">If these conditions cannot be resolved by discussion, an override procedure is defined such that at least two CESG or CMC members must express concerns before a
document can be blocked from moving forward. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">NOTE: These procedures help ensure that an AD's "pet project" doesn't make it onto the standards track if it will have a negative effect on the rest of the CCSDS
protocols and that an AD's "pet peeve" cannot indefinitely block something.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">We do not have such a process now and it occurs to me that this addition might be a useful one in the case of "stand-offs" like the recent one that prompted this discussion in the first
place.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Regards, Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">CESG-All <cesg-all-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org> on behalf of Nestor Peccia <Nestor.Peccia@esa.int><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 3, 2016 at 12:27 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG All <cesg-all@mailman.ccsds.org>, CMC <CMC@mailman.ccsds.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[Cesg-all] Notes of the CESG Meeting on 24th October 2016<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif","serif"">Dear all,</span>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif","serif"">Please find attached the notes of the last CESG meeting</span>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif","serif"">ciao</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif","serif"">nestor</span> <o:p>
</o:p></p>
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