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<p>OK. That's how I interpreted the other language, but yours is certainly more explicit.</p>
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<p>--keith</p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Shames, Peter M (312B) <peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 3, 2016 5:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Scott, Keith L.; Nestor.Peccia@esa.int; CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG All; CCSDS Management Council(CMC@mailman.ccsds.org)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Cesg-all] Notes of the CESG Meeting on 24th October 2016</font>
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<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">Thanks Keith,</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">After reading your comments I still think that the text in the minutes is rather mis-leading because it does not emphasize an important CESG responsibility. If it were worded in the following way I could
accept it:</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">2. Other CESG discussions</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">1. CESG Poll conditions:</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">· Scope of conditions prior to Publication (including AD/DAD participation in Agency Reviews)</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri; background:yellow">The CESG recognizes that there are several opportunities for the CESG to affect a document and suggests that the AD/DAD minimize her/his conditions at time of final book publication polls.
Late inputs are often costly and should be avoided if at all possible. That said, it also re-affirms that the CESG, as a whole, has a responsibility to maintain the overall technical quality and consistency of the evolving set of CCSDS Recommended Standards
and Practices and that may require conditions be placed even at the last moment before publication. It is also the case that any member of CCSDS, including WG members, Chairs, AD, DAD, or other may also participate in an agency review to express an agency
position.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">· Are conditions un-rejectable by definition for all CESG Polls?</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">Conditions are not rejectable according to the YB, which contemplates a negotiation instance and possibly escalation if negotiation fails.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">CESG recommends to raise PIDs (Poll Item Discrepancy)
<span style="background:yellow">during the polls,</span> <span style="background:yellow">
using some suitable form</span>, at least for showstopper conditions, and identify conditions that are non showstopper as such.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">· Discussion of CESG and AD responsibilities</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> CESG reaffirms the spirit of the Proc & Org YB related to the AD responsibilities
<span style="background:yellow">for maintaining and upholding the overall technical quality and consistency of the evolving set of CCSDS Recommended Standards and Practices.</span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">Regards, Peter</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
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<b><span style="font-family:Calibri; color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-family:Calibri; color:black">Keith Scott <kscott@mitre.org><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 3, 2016 at 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Peter Shames <peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov>, Nestor Peccia <Nestor.Peccia@esa.int>, CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG All <cesg-all@mailman.ccsds.org>, CMC <CMC@mailman.ccsds.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Cesg-all] Notes of the CESG Meeting on 24th October 2016</span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">As I said in the meeting, I believe strongly that minimizing large (i.e. that would require additional agency reviews) technical RIDs coming during the final CESG poll would be a Good Thing. My notion has
always been that as an Area Director I had three opportunities to affect a book:</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="text-indent: -0.25in; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="">1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">During the initial CESG poll to release the book for agency review</span></p>
<p style="text-indent: -0.25in; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="">2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">During the agency review RID process</span></p>
<p style="text-indent: -0.25in; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="">3.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">At the final CESG poll for publication</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">I get Peter’s point that CESG inputs during step 2 should be distinguished from agency inputs, and if that is indeed the case then I think we have a solution. If it’s NOT the case then Ads should be more
vigilant about raising issues during phase 1, with the intent/hope that no issues will need to be raised in phase 3. But, if the AD finds that the book is simply not acceptable, stopping it at the last stage before publication, probably to be sent back for
more agency reviews, is the right thing to do in order to maintain the overall technical quality and consistency of the evolving set of CCSDS Recommended Standards and Practices.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">I read Nestor’s comments as essentially agreeing with the above. CESG
<b>suggests</b> that we try to get the issues identified and addressed early. If we don’t/cant’, we risk stopping a book at the last stage and possibly sending it back for additional agency reviews, but we
<b>HAVE</b> to maintain quality first.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> --keith</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
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<b><span style="font-family:Calibri; color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-family:Calibri; color:black">CESG-All <cesg-all-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org> on behalf of Peter Shames <peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 3, 2016 at 2:14 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Nestor Peccia <Nestor.Peccia@esa.int>, CCSDS All <cesg-all@mailman.ccsds.org>, "CCSDS Management Council(CMC@mailman.ccsds.org)" <CMC@mailman.ccsds.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Cesg-all] Notes of the CESG Meeting on 24th October 2016</span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">Nestor, et al,</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">I have an real issue with one of the statements made in your meeting minutes. This is under item 2, Other CESG Discussions, which states:</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span lang="PT-BR" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">2. Other CESG discussions</span></p>
<p style="text-indent: -0.3in; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="">1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span><span lang="PT-BR" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">CESG Poll conditions:</span></p>
<p style="text-indent: -0.35in; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span lang="PT-BR" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">Scope of conditions prior to Publication (including AD/DAD participation in Agency Reviews)</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span lang="PT-BR" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri; background:yellow">CESG suggests to the AD/DAD to minimize her/his conditions at time of CESG book publication polls. CESG members have the opportunity to raise technical issues prior / during
Agency Review(s)</span></p>
<p style="text-indent: -0.35in; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span lang="PT-BR" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">Are conditions un-rejectable by definition for all CESG Polls?</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">Conditions are not rejectable according to the YB, which contemplates a negotiation instance and possibly escalation if negotiation fails.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">CESG recommends to raise PIDs (Poll Item Discrepancy) at least for showstopper conditions during polls and identify conditions that are non showstopper as such.</span></p>
<p style="text-indent: -0.35in; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">Discussion of CESG and AD responsibilities</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> CESG reaffirms the spirit of the Proc & Org YB related to the AD responsibilities
<span style="background:yellow">(for maintaining and upholding the overall technical quality and consistency of the evolving set of CCSDS Recommended Standards and Practices)</span>.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">The issue, as we discussed extensively during the CESG meeting, is that CESG members have specific roles and duties in regard assuring the technical quality of CCSDS documents. This was discussed at length
and I provided the set of materials (attached) extracted from the CCSDS Organization and Processes (A02.1-Y-4) that document those duties. My problem is that this wording in the minutes totally ignores the CESG responsibilities requiring review of all published
documents and again suggests that somehow CESG conditions should be "minimized" and just treated as agency inputs.
</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">As stated this is a total perversion of CESG responsibilities and it also, in essence, suggests that CESG inputs are just inputs from an agency instead of conditions placed by a member of the CCSDS Engineering
Steering Group with the express intent of ensuring consistency of the CCSDS standards (sec 2.3.2.2.d), and …</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">"</span><b><span style="font-size:16.0pt; font-family:Arial; color:black">
</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">Sec 2.3.2.3.a, “<u>maintaining and upholding the overall technical quality and consistency of the evolving set of CCSDS Recommended Standards and Practices</u>”</span></b></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">There is no expectation that members of CCSDS agencies will attend to these stated CESG technical responsibilities. These responsibilities are the expressly stated province of the CESG and they must not be
swept under the rug or minimized lest the quality of CCSDS standards, as a whole, will suffer. We already have far too many instances of CESG votes to "abstain, doesn't affect me" or "accept unconditionally", which signals, at least to me, that these CESG
responsibilities are being taken lightly.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">I acknowledge that one of the other concerns we discussed was that of efficient production of standards. This is a concern, as is holding up review and publication for editorial "nits". In fact, the addition
in item 2 in this list, involving the adoption of a PIDs (Poll Item Discrepancy) for "showstopper conditions" was intended to make this distinction clear. I think that the "scope of conditions" in item 1 was really resolved by the introduction of the PID
and not by the notion that CESG inputs should be "minimized" or swept into the category of "agency inputs".</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">I would ask that you amend the minutes to reflect this actual outcome of the CESG discussion and not persist in promoting this "AD conditions may be treated as agency inputs" approach in the future. The added
clause in item 3 should also be added, since this was the specific topic that was discussed, not just random AD responsibilities such as proving meeting agendas.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">One last comment on this topic. During the reorganization we intentionally patterned our procedures and even the new organization on the Internet, particularly the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) and
the Internet Engineering Steering Board (IESG). Our working organization is equivalent to the IETF and the CESG is equivalent to the IESG. There are very many parallels in the CCSDS procedures and much of the wording in A02.1-Y-4 was lifted directly from
IETF documents.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">Just yesterday Scott Burleigh pointed me to an excellent IETF document called the Tao of the IETF (<a href="https://myremote.mitre.org/,DanaInfo=www.ietf.org,SSL+tao.html)" style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193); text-decoration: underline;" id="LPlnk285786" previewremoved="true">https://www.ietf.org/tao.html)</a>.
There is one particular section I would draw your attention to now, which we might consider adopting in this context to augment the CCSDS procedures, from Sec 2.2.2:</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">"</span> <span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">
The ADs for a particular Area are expected to know more about the combined work of the WGs in that Area than anyone else. On the other hand, the entire IESG reviews each Internet-Draft that is proposed to become an RFC. Any AD may record a "DISCUSS" ballot
position against a draft if he or she has serious concerns. If these concerns cannot be resolved by discussion, an override procedure is defined such that at least two IESG members must express concerns before a draft can be blocked from moving forward. These
procedures help ensure that an AD's "pet project" doesn't make it onto the standards track if it will have a negative effect on the rest of the IETF protocols and that an AD's "pet peeve" cannot indefinitely block something. "</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"><br>
This is the IETF language, but AD == CCSDS AD and WG == CCSDS WGs. Similarly, IESG == CESG. I'm reluctant to suggest more "rules", but would offer for discussion in the CESG an approach patterned on this, as an augmentation to A02.1-Y-4 Polling process, Sec
5.3.5. Perhaps we could add the following to the clauses in sec 5.3.5.4.3 Conditional Approval.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">If these conditions cannot be resolved by discussion, an override procedure is defined such that at least two CESG or CMC members must express concerns before a document can be blocked from moving forward.
</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">NOTE: These procedures help ensure that an AD's "pet project" doesn't make it onto the standards track if it will have a negative effect on the rest of the CCSDS protocols and that an AD's "pet peeve" cannot
indefinitely block something.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">We do not have such a process now and it occurs to me that this addition might be a useful one in the case of "stand-offs" like the recent one that prompted this discussion in the first place.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">Regards, Peter</span></p>
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<b><span style="font-family:Calibri; color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-family:Calibri; color:black">CESG-All <cesg-all-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org> on behalf of Nestor Peccia <Nestor.Peccia@esa.int><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 3, 2016 at 12:27 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG All <cesg-all@mailman.ccsds.org>, CMC <CMC@mailman.ccsds.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[Cesg-all] Notes of the CESG Meeting on 24th October 2016</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Helvetica">Dear all,</span> <br>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Helvetica">Please find attached the notes of the last CESG meeting</span>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Helvetica">ciao</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Helvetica">nestor</span> </p>
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