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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Daniel,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The updated presentation looks good. Thank you for the clarification regarding the Time Management WG. That makes sense.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regarding CESG and transparency, it seems to me we (CESG) could perhaps have some sort of “main points” bulletin that is issued within a month after the Fall/Spring CESG meetings that would summarize the main decisions and maybe post it
in the CWE? Perhaps something to discuss at the next CESG telecon? For example, coming out of the Fall 2024 meetings was consensus to fast-track, as much as possible, BP V7 publication.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Erik<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Lux, Jim (US 3370) <james.p.lux@jpl.nasa.gov> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 11, 2025 10:32<br>
<b>To:</b> Daniel Fischer <Daniel.Fischer@esa.int>; Barkley, Erik J (US 3970) <erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Following on Daniel's slides<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">This looks just fine..<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> CESG <<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Daniel Fischer via CESG<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 11, 2025 8:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Barkley, Erik J (US 3970) <<a href="mailto:erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov">erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>; CESG <<a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re: [CESG] Following on Daniel's slides<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Dear Erik, Jim, all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Many thanks for the feedback. I made some adjustments on the slides based on your comments (see the update).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">I do believe the main “fear” that we should mitigate is the perception (probably not entirely wrong) that CCSDS so far has no (or very little) expertise in the Lunar PNT domain but
still wants to “push” into the field as an “expansion of the business”. That was very clear when I talked to Cheryl a few weeks ago. As such, the main message I am aiming for is to outline the benefits of working with CCSDS as an organisation (reaching all
major space agencies, affiliation with ISO, well recognised, synergies with other CCSDS domains that are needed to build the full picture, etc.). Basically, extend the hand and its up for them to take it. Because lets be honest, if they don’t there is very
little we can do about it. They were also very cautious when it came to (a) duplication of effort/ overlaps e.g. with ICG – this is why I am offering them to come with the same people to CCSDS and (b) the “slow nature” of CCSDS. For the latter, we should be
able to offer them quick solutions aka “lets take a look together on the work that has already been done for Lunar PNT e.g. by LunaNet and use CCSDS to make it an international, consensus-based, standard”.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">I do also agree with Jim and Peter that an architecture would be very helpful, in particular to put together all the building blocks needed for a Lunar PNT system from the various
WGs. We should work on it in parallel. But for the sake of showing quick progress, I recommend not to wait for it to be done before we proceed.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">And I also agree that we have not yet finalised the discussions on working group competence, but as Erik said, we need to pass a simple message. In the last CESG meeting we agreed
(as minuted by Klaus-Jürgen) that the main responsibility will be with the (then evolved) Time Management WG with other working groups (and this was the intention on slide 3) to support them as needed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Does this make sense?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Cheers<br>
Daniel<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">PS: Cheryl also complained that the discussions taking place in the CESG (at least from the Fall meetings) regards to CCSDS approach to Cislunar PNT are totally untransparent to
the technical people actually working on these topics (including her and her team in LunaNet) and I believe she has a point. I would recommend that we prepare a few slides on these aspects for the plenary session in June including also the feedback from the
community that we hopefully get this week. Would you agree to this (we can discuss in our next telco)?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"> </span></u></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><br>
</span><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">ESA – European Space Agency</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><br>
Dr. Daniel Fischer (he/him) </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#45B0E1;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">I</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#45B0E1;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4C94D8;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Lead Ground Systems Engineering Architect</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Ground Segment Engineering and Innovation Department</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><br>
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Directorate of Operations</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><br>
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">ESOC </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">I</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"> Robert-Bosch-Str.
5, 64293 Darmstadt, Germany<br>
Tel: +49 6151 902718</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><br>
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><a href="mailto:Daniel.Fischer@esa.int">Daniel.Fischer@esa.int</a> </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">I</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">
<a href="http://www.esa.int/"><span style="color:blue">www.esa.int</span></a></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> CESG <<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Barkley, Erik J (US 3970) via CESG<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 10 February 2025 21:06<br>
<b>To:</b> CESG <<a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CESG] Following on Daniel's slides<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">CESG Colleagues,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I tend to support the approach, ideas that are in the “Role of CCSDS with respect to PNT at the Moon” document. I think that taking on a PNT effort in CCSDS cannot just be one single working group. And I think it should be the system engineering
area in conjunction with the CESG that figures out how to prioritize and look at the standards that need to be produced. It may be that this is really not so much given we already have, presumably, a good start with the signal format from ICG. Having said
that, it may be that it is easiest for a more public audience to grasp "expansion" of a working group in CCSDS to consider PNT more thoroughly for the moon. I will note that the proposed group here is technically not the "Timing WG” as noted in the presentation,
but really rather the “Time Management WG". Given that this is in the system engineering area, then this is probably going in the right direction.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">With regard to the document, it may well be that some sort of magenta book codifying what is good practices ultimately makes sense, but I don't think you want to lead with that in the presentation. I worry that this will come across as
too much “PhD-ing” (theory) versus getting towards practical solutions. At the same time, I think we could may be add something in the presentation to make it clear that one of the advantages of CCSDS would be the ability to marshal and orchestrate and/or
tune as necessary supporting standards that might be needed to get to a proper international PNT solution for the moon. So a suggestion for slide 4 could be to add a bullet point like:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3">Ability to address supporting standards to facilitate complete PNT systems needs<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">(nodes that support PNT delivery will of course need to be managed, implying trajectory determination, collision assessment, telecommand, telemetry, etc., for these nodes, all of which CCSDS addresses via its suite of standards)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Slide 3 of the presentation – the Navigation WG and “Timing WG” (really “Time Management WG”) boxes are present throughout the entire set of animations. Perhaps this is intentional to highlight two of the key groups that would likely be
involved with PNT? But I find it detracts quite a bit from trying to present an overview of the CCSDS technical areas.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Erik<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> CESG <<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lux, Jim (US 3370) via CESG<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 10, 2025 10:13<br>
<b>To:</b> CESG <<a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] [CESG] Following on Daniel's slides<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniel’s slides and my ideas sort of crossed in the mail.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In the attached, Peter Shames and I came up with some thoughts (not intended for direct distribution, more as thoughts to feed into what we might want to do). I was thinking that maybe CCSDS could define a PNT architecture (within the
framework we already have) – defining PNT unique aspects: satellites, pseudolites, ground stations, users, control segment – everyone has their own preferences for the actual implementation, but CCSDS could at least define a common way to describe their implementation.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jim Lux<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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