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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Gippo,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for the feedback. I pulled out those references to get clear just what the stated relationships are. And I agree that they are a little complex. Let's try and boil it down.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">The SANA is a creature (let's leave it at that for now) of the CMC, and yet it really is a technical element of CCSDS, not a management element.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">The SANA gets it's technical guidance from the SSG, so the SSG is somehow "above" the SANA.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">The SSG is a technical element, but it reports directly to the CMC.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">The SSG recommendations get reviewed and concurred by the CESG, and approved by the CMC, just like all other standards.<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The SEA AD is the identified chair in large part because "<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"TimesNewRomanPSMT",serif">The Systems Engineering Area (SEA) covers system-wide engineering aspects that are so pervasive that they span
both the Informatics and Telematics Domains. </span>" (from a02x1y4c2)<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"TimesNewRomanPSMT",serif">
</span>and<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"TimesNewRomanPSMT",serif"> "</span>The System Engineering Area (SEA) supports the work of the CCSDS by providing : - Coordination and collaboration with the other areas about architectural choices and options"
(from SEA Charter on-line at https://cwe.ccsds.org/sea/default.aspx).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">As a result of this cross-cutting and dual responsibility I do not think that the SSG or the SANA belong down in the SEA part of the technical org chart. I think that they have to be appended to the CMC.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">And, given that the SANA has both a "management role", in that it manages data for the whole CCSDS as assigned by the CMC, and a "technical role", in that it provides a technical service and not a management service, it probably belongs
on both diagrams.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If we were to put the SSG down in the SEA part of the technical org chart we would have to show a management line from the SSG up to the "top" of the SANA, and that would be awkward. I think the draft charts I provided are roughly correct
as they are.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards, Peter<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">CESG <cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org> on behalf of Gian Paolo Calzolari <Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 7:46 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec <cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [CESG] [EXTERNAL] Why not showing SANA Steering Group on CCSDS Web Pages?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Peter,</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> thank you fro drawing my attention on the additional drawing. So we have two drawing that can/may be affected:
</span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">1) CCSDS Technical Organization @
</span><a href="https://cwe.ccsds.org/default.aspx"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">https://cwe.ccsds.org/default.aspx</span></a>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">2) CCSDS Management Structure @
</span><a href="https://public.ccsds.org/about/ManagementStructure.aspx"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">https://public.ccsds.org/about/ManagementStructure.aspx</span></a>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Only the latter shows SANA on the same side of the Secretariat.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I think this is correct as SANA and Secretariat are not part of the Technical organization to which they provide services (and indeed "The SANA provides this key configuration management service
for CCSDS.").</span> <br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">However, as you correctly remind us,
</span><a href="https://public.ccsds.org/Pubs/313x0y2.pdf"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">https://public.ccsds.org/Pubs/313x0y2.pdf</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> states that the SSG has
"to provide to the SANA operator technical and programmatic guidance related to ongoing operational and policy matters."</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">In such a sense I think that while SANA does not belong to the Technical Organization, SSG does belong to the Technical Organization.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">It is also true that SSG is appointed by the CMC and that Membership of the SANA Steering Group is determined and approved by the CMC but being the chair by default the SEA AD, I would rather put
it under the SEA Umbrella (i.e. showing it in the SEA column of the CCSDS Technical Organization @
</span><a href="https://cwe.ccsds.org/default.aspx"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">https://cwe.ccsds.org/default.aspx</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> ) even if I can agree that it has a
special status starting from the fact that people cannot just volunteer to be SSG members (as done for normal WG) but the membership shall be blessed by CMC.</span>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Moreover, also keeping in mind that SSG has a tight link to CMC, it is also true that the input given is checked first by CESG that is called to check the technical contents of the documents including
the Annex with SANA Considerations.</span> <br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I think that an extra box in the SEA Column for the CCSDS Technical Organization diagram would also help in creating the awareness you call for.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Further details can be easily written in the extra tab that would be added @
</span><a href="https://cwe.ccsds.org/sea/default.aspx"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">https://cwe.ccsds.org/sea/default.aspx</span></a>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">My cent (after your valuable input).</span>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Of course, no problem in discussing this at the next CESG telecon.</span>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Gippo</span> <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#5F5F5F">From: </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">"Shames, Peter M (US 312B)" <peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov></span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#5F5F5F">To: </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">"Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int" <Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int>, "CCSDS CESG --" <cesg@mailman.ccsds.org></span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#5F5F5F">Date: </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">12-02-20 18:26</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#5F5F5F">Subject: </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Re: [EXTERNAL] [CESG] Why not showing SANA Steering Group on CCSDS Web Pages?</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin-left:.5in;text-align:center">
<hr size="0" width="100%" noshade="" style="color:#A0A0A0" align="center">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
<o:p> </o:p></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
Hi Gippo,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
You are correct that the SANA is shown on our web pages, but the SSG is not. I think the reason for that is that we wanted to give the SANA and the registries prominence for the users of the site. The SSG is a steering group, much like the CESG is a steering
group. The CESG is visible on the two org / structure charts that we have, but the focus in both is on the WG structure which is where the bulk of the work is done, as we all know. The role of the CESG, and of the SSG, is technical oversight. We are intended
to make sure that the right sausage is being made and that the sausage is made correctly and without flaws or contaminants.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
The SSG and its role is introduced in the current CCSDS A02x1y4c2, in Sec 2.3.1.4.7, on pg 2-8. This original text dates back to April 2004 when CCSDS was re-organized:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><br>
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#0082BF">The SSG will provide oversight of SANA operations, validate and confirm SANA operations, and be the first level of appeal for issues. The SSG can be reached at ssg@sanaregistry.org.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
The SSG is further touched upon in the current SANA Role, Responsibilities document, CCSDS 313x0y1, in Sec 3.7, on pg 3-3. This original text dates back to July 2011:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><br>
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#0082BF">A SANA Steering Group (SSG) is appointed by the CMC to provide to the SANA operator technical and programmatic guidance related to ongoing operational and policy matters. The SSG is delegated responsibility for oversight
of SANA operations, validation and confirmation of SANA operations, and acting as the first level of appeal for issues.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
A more complete description of the SSG was documented in the Registry Management Policy, CCSDS 313x1y1, in Sec 4.2.2 SANA Steering Group, on pg 4-1. This original text, which references and extends the 313x0y1 text quoted above, dates from May 2016:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><br>
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#0082BF">The membership of the SANA Steering Group is determined and approved by the CMC.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span style="color:#0082BF">…</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><br>
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#0082BF">The membership of the SANA Steering Group consists of individuals with the following responsibilities:
</span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">· </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#0082BF">– SEA AD, chair; </span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">· </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#0082BF">– SANA Operator (ex officio);
</span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">· </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#0082BF">– Secretariat (ex officio); </span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">· </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#0082BF">– CMC member; </span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">· </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#0082BF">– MOIMS area member; </span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">· </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#0082BF">– CSS area member; </span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">· </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#0082BF">– SOIS area member; </span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">· </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#0082BF">– SLS area member; </span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">· </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0082BF"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#0082BF">
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#0082BF">– SIS area member.</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#0082BF">Members should also be chosen to ensure agency balance.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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I think it is pretty clear that the SSG reports to the CMC, as does the SANA itself. We could choose to reflect that role and relationship on the web site in a couple of different ways graphically. I have attached draft "revised" versions of two different
CCSDS website pages as suggestions. I do not have any strong feelings about how we represent the SSG nor even whether we do it. What is most important from my point of view is that the CCSDS Areas, and their WG Chairs, become aware of what we are creating
as a set of inter-related registries and their roles in keeping this as useful and coherent as possible. If updating the CCSDS website pages serves that end I am all for it.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
On a related note, I will point out that during the typical SSG meetings we have had SANA Operator, Secretariat, CMC, SEA, and SLS participation. We occasionally have had CSS present. The agencies typically represented include: NASA, CNES, and DLR. I do
not think that the other areas typically participate at all. That is their choice, of course, but it means that they are choosing not to exercise a role that they have been given in steering the SANA.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
I suggest that discussing this should be a topic for the next CESG telecon.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
Best regards, Peter<o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:12.0pt">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt">CESG <cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org> on behalf of Gian Paolo Calzolari <Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int><b><br>
Date: </b>Wednesday, February 12, 2020 at 1:35 AM<b><br>
To: </b>CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec <cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><b><br>
Subject: </b>[EXTERNAL] [CESG] Why not showing SANA Steering Group on CCSDS Web Pages?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Dear All,</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
<br>
I just noticed that the SANA Steering Group (SSG) is not present on our CCSDS Web Pages.</span>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><br>
It is not present in the diagram showing the CCSDS Technical Organization (see </span>
<a href="https://cwe.ccsds.org/default.aspx"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">https://cwe.ccsds.org/default.aspx</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> )</span>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><br>
SANA is mentioned on the Home Page </span><a href="https://public.ccsds.org/default.aspx"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">https://public.ccsds.org/default.aspx</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
but this is not SSG.</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><br>
Considering also the increasing importance of SANA in our activities, I wonder whether SSG should be present somewhere on our CCSDS web pages.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><br>
My cent.</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><br>
Gian Paolo</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">personal data, in case of data privacy queries, please contact the ESA Data Protection Officer (dpo@esa.int).[attachment "Revised CCSDS Mgmt Struct SSG.pdf" deleted by Gian Paolo Calzolari/esoc/ESA] [attachment
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<pre style="margin-left:.5in">This message is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. It may contain proprietary information and/or<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">protected content. Any unauthorised disclosure, use, retention or dissemination is prohibited. If you have received<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately. ESA applies appropriate organisational measures to protect<o:p></o:p></pre>
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