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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Mario,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">This "over and over" discussion is a product of your choosing to bring it up now as an issue. I did a little forensic investigation and that text has been in the CCSDS A02x1y document
since version 3, dated July 2011. I can only conclude that the organization has been working effectively, and using these procedures, for the last six (6) years without any substantive issues. Reasonable people have had no problem with this.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">I'd have to admit to being puzzled as to why you are making it an issue now. Perhaps you can explain what your motivation is or exactly what you think should be changed, and why?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">If it relates to the recent issue with the CCSDS MO MAL Binding to HTTP(s) Transport and XML Encoding (CESG poll), I need to point out that by either measure, that of "technical issues"
or that of "substantive changes are made to a document that has completed review without technical comment" this document did not meet either of those tests. It had significant technical issues during the review and it had substantive changes made after the
review.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Instead of just batting this topic back and forth please suggest some simple changes to this text that you believe would make it clearer.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">I also want to be completely transparent about my motivation. I'm committed to helping to keep CCSDS to be an effective standards organization. That is why I take the time to review our
standards and provide feedback. That is also why I have volunteered to support Tom during the Boot Camp sessions at working meetings. The more we all can do to improve the quality of the documents we produce, starting at the "book boss" and WG level, and
involving review and vetting by the ADs before documents leave the Area, the smoother this whole process will be.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">If there are changes that we can make to our procedures that will really help that I will support them. But I really believe that the procedures are pretty good already. What will make
the biggest change is if we all commit to following them, and that starts in the WG and Areas, not in CESG and Agency reviews. I think that Nestor's slides from yesterday made that clear.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Thanks, Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">Mario Merri <Mario.Merri@esa.int><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 6:02 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Peter Shames <peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov><br>
<b>Cc: </b>CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec <cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: Use of "Substantive changes"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Peter,</span>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">we keep on discussing the same thing over and over. OK, the word "substantive" is present in the YB, but not to mean "substantive technical issues". You should read the full paragraph and not only bullet c),
below for everyone's convenience:</span> <br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue">6.2.5.2 Once review of a document has been authorized, that document may be reviewed more than once without additional polling of the CMC:</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue">a) if technical issues are identified in the course of a review, those issues must be resolved and the review must be repeated before approval can be sought for a change of document status;</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue">b) increasing draft issue numbers shall be assigned to successive versions of the draft document released in successive iterations of the review (see annex E);</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue">c) if substantive changes are made to a document that has completed review without technical comment, the Secretariat shall conduct a final review in which Agencies can approve or reject the document
but may not suggest additional changes;</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue">d) the Secretariat shall follow the same procedures for posting review materials and review announcement for each iteration of a review.</span>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Paragraph a) deals with technical issues. Here no notion of substantive is present. An unreasonable person who reads this paragraph may understand that 1 technical issue is enough to call for another AR. Additionally,
the notion of technical issue is not clear: is a technical issue present when there is a RID that has been marked as "Technical Fact"? And marked by who (the originator or the review coordinator)?</span>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Paragraph c), that you quoted, refers to a document that has "completed the review without technical comments".
</span><br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Therefore the concept of substantive technical issue does not exist today in the YB.
</span><br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Regards,</span> <br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">__Mario</span> <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#5F5F5F">From: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">"Shames, Peter M (312B)" <peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov></span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#5F5F5F">To: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">Mario Merri <Mario.Merri@esa.int></span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#5F5F5F">Cc: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec <cesg@mailman.ccsds.org></span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#5F5F5F">Date: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">15/05/2017 16:50</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#5F5F5F">Subject: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">Use of "Substantive changes"</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><br>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Hi Mario,</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">You just mentioned that you thought the word "substantive" did not appear in the CCSDS YB. But it does, in sec 6.2.5.2 (emphasis
<b><i>added</i></b>):</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">6.2.5 FORMAL AGENCY REVIEW </span>
</b><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">6.2.5.2 Once review of a document has been authorized, that document may be reviewed more than once without additional polling of the CMC:
</span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">. c) <b><i>if substantive changes are made</i></b> to a document that has completed review without technical comment, the Secretariat shall conduct a final review in which Agencies can approve or
reject the document but may not suggest additional changes; </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">
</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">As with most words in the English language that are used in our documents, but not specifically defined, we depend on common usage in English to define meanings. In this case we can refer to one or more dictionary
definitions for this "common usage". Try these:</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Google primary definition</span></u>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">sub·stan·tive</span> <br>
<i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">adjective</span></i> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">adjective: <b>substantive</b></span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">1. having a firm basis in reality and therefore important, meaningful, or considerable.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">"there is no substantive evidence for the efficacy of these drugs"</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Oxford dictionary definition</span></u>
<br>
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">substantive</span></b> <br>
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">adjective</span></b> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol">· </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Having a firm basis in reality and so important, meaningful, or considerable.</span>
<br>
<i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">‘there is no substantive evidence for the efficacy of these drugs’</span></i>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">There are also a few uses of "substantive change", but these tend to be organization / topic specific. A couple that are relevant are these:</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">When you talk about substantive change, you mean change that really makes a difference.</span></i>
<br>
<i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span></i> <br>
<i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Substantive change</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> is a significant modification or expansion in the nature and scope of an accredited institution</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">So this specific definition mentions "accredited organization", for us it could say "draft document", and that would have appropriate meaning in our context. I think that these meanings are clear. I hope
you do as well.</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Regards, Peter</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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