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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If I don’t misinterpret Keith’s statement, I think it is about exploiting tunneling capabilities of the bundle protocol so that is able to transport “blindly”
CCSDS frames. Obviously we don’t want to flip the CCSDS protocol stack.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Tomaso
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:dimgray">————————————————————————</span><span style="color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:dimgray">Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:dimgray"> (DLR)</span><span style="color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:dimgray">German Aerospace Center</span><span style="color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:dimgray">Institute of Communications and Navigation | Satellite Networks | Oberpfaffenhofen | 82234 Wessling | Germany</span><span style="color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="IT" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:dimgray">Tomaso de Cola, Ph.D.</span></b><span lang="IT" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:dimgray">Telefon +49 8153 28-2156 | Telefax +49 8153 28-2844 |</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:tomaso.decola@dlr.de"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">tomaso.decola@dlr.de</span></a>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/san">http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/san</a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> CESG [mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Shames, Peter M (312B)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 27, 2016 6:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int; Scott, Keith L.<br>
<b>Cc:</b> CESG; CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec(cesg@mailman.ccsds.org)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CESG] IOAG: Service Catalogue #1 / File Services warning (complete)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Gotta say I agree with Gippo on the last part of this. I too found that
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">forward frame service running over bundles</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"
statement </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">very confusing. Was it a typo?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The operating assumption, as documented in SCCS-ADD, is that DTN bundles run on top of CCSDS frames and thus on top of CSTS services, not underneath them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Gian Paolo Calzolari <<a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int">Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 8:32 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Keith Scott <<a href="mailto:kscott@mitre.org">kscott@mitre.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec <<a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>, CESG <<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>, Nestor Peccia <<a href="mailto:Nestor.Peccia@esa.int">Nestor.Peccia@esa.int</a>>,
Peter Shames <<a href="mailto:peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov">peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [CESG] IOAG: Service Catalogue #1 / File Services warning (complete)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Keith,
<br>
try to keep in mind that an IOAG Service is indeed a collection of Space Link Interface Standards & Ground Link Interface Standards.
<br>
Moreover, as Nestor underlined, Catalog 1 is for ABA configuration and the CFDP transmission only covers the single hop space to ground (or vice versa).</span>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">When you say "</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> I understood the forward file service to have evolved into a mechanism/semantic for zipping a bunch of stuff
together (metadata, data, etc.) </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">" I think you refer to the Ground Link Interface Standard under development in CSS; i.e. only to a part of the IOAG Serrvice.</span>
<br>
<span style="color:red"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:red">Last but not least I am very puzzled by the statement "</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:red">forward frame service running over bundles</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:red">".
Catalog 2 states that <<The CSTS Forward Frame Services above is “to be written”. It is assumed that this Service will provide a forward frame service for [AOS] and [TC-DLP] implementing multiplexing, frame fill and coding in the provider and implementing
the full stack down to the physical layer>> so having AOS or TC frames running over bundles would reverse our CSCDS Stack where are bundles that - throug e.g. encapsulation service - run over AOS and TC frames.</span><span style="color:red">
<br>
</span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Regards</span> <br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Gian Paolo</span>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F">From: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"Scott, Keith L." <<a href="mailto:kscott@mitre.org">kscott@mitre.org</a>></span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F">To: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"Shames, Peter M (312B)" <<a href="mailto:peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov">peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>,
"<a href="mailto:Nestor.Peccia@esa.int">Nestor.Peccia@esa.int</a>" <<a href="mailto:Nestor.Peccia@esa.int">Nestor.Peccia@esa.int</a>>, "CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec(<a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</a>)" <<a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</a>></span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F">Date: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">26/09/2016 22:06</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F">Subject: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Re: [CESG] IOAG: Service Catalogue #1</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F">Sent by: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"CESG" <<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>></span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Peter,</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I think I agree with you. My concern from the beginning has been that I do not want the forward file service to morph into a way to try to do multi-hop forwarding using file transfers as the
‘data link’ mechanism. I understood the forward file service to have evolved into a mechanism/semantic for zipping a bunch of stuff together (metadata, data, etc.) to be used by the end system application (the receiver end of the data transfer), with possibly
some application semantics layered on top.</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">In fact, if the forward-XXX services were generalized just a bit, I think they’d cover the DTN emergency command/telemetry case. Or maybe the DTN emergency commanding service is the forward
frame service running over bundles, I hadn’t thought of that until now but I like it. If part of the CSTS forward-frame service states how to tunnel (in my case, FRAMES) to a remote location and then radiate them, and if it can be run over BP as a transport
mechanism… It would address an IOAG need, at least.</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> --keith</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span> <br>
<b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From: </span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">"<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>
on behalf of Peter Shames <<a href="mailto:peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov">peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><b><br>
Date: </b>Monday, September 26, 2016 at 3:33 PM<b><br>
To: </b>Nestor Peccia <<a href="mailto:Nestor.Peccia@esa.int">Nestor.Peccia@esa.int</a>>, CCSDS Exec <<a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><b><br>
Subject: </b>Re: [CESG] IOAG: Service Catalogue #1</span> <br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Nestor,</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I know that this is a late input, but after reading the IOAG Svc Cat #1 I have a very real concern that I think needs to be surfaced. Four new services have been introduced, the "Forward/Return
CFDP-File Service Type" and the "Forward/Return PACKETS-File Service Type". In reading through the descriptions I find that they mention certain SM characteristics, but fail to acknowledge the required presence of a whole lot of "packet / file / frame plumbing"
that is missing in most of our current systems. Of particular concern, from a standards and logistics point of view, is that these new standards require a lot of the "plumbing" that CSTS F-Frame is supposed to provide, but make no mention of that standard.
In fact, the precursor standards, "Forward Synchronous Encoded Frame Service Type" has been dropped, and what is left is just some sort of weak "forward reference" to a CSTS F-Frame service.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I think this is a huge mistake and that we should push back on it.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Here is the logic behind this:</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span> <br>
1) <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">FF-CSTS includes the key services and functions that are required for anything like forward file, or forward packet, or forward DTN to work.</span>
<br>
2) <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">These functions include, quoting from the report "Users shall be aware that IOAG Service Catalog 2 foresees a future CSTS Forward Frame Service that is assumed will provide a forward
service for [AOS] and [TC-DLP] frames implementing multiplexing, frame fill and coding in the provider and implementing the full stack down to the physical layer."</span>
<br>
3) <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">In order to implement a forward file or packet service all of these functions,
<b><i>plus</i></b> frame creation, must be present in the service provider.</span>
<br>
4) <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">It makes little technical sense to create forward file and forward packet services, as new separate services that embed all of these function, instead of creating the FF-CSTS service
and then building CFDP and Packet service "plug-ins" on top of that which use this underlying service.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">In fact, this approach is exactly how the forward file service is now described in the SCCS-ADD. I draw your attention to CCSDS 901.1-M-1, sec 5.2.2.2 and sec 6.2.2.2. In fact, fig 6-4 shows
the relationships among SM, CSTS F-Frame, the associated functions that are required, including ranging, and also SLE R-AF, and fig 6-8 (ABA ESLT Forward-File Protocol Building Blocks) shows how F-Frame and Fwd frame are designed to be integrated. Any sort
of forward packet service ought to just be a variant of this.</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">My recommendation is that CCSDS push back on this IOAG Cat 1 request for two new stand alone services and instead argue that CSTS F-Frame should be done first, and these other new service built
upon that base.</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Regards, Peter</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span> <br>
<b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From: </span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">CESG <<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>> on behalf of Nestor Peccia <<a href="mailto:Nestor.Peccia@esa.int">Nestor.Peccia@esa.int</a>><b><br>
Date: </b>Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 3:43 AM<b><br>
To: </b>CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec <<a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><b><br>
Subject: </b>[CESG] IOAG: Service Catalogue #1</span> <br>
<br>
<u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:red">REMINDER</span></u> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
Please let me have your comments (in particular from the CSS Area) by 22nd Sept 2016 cob.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
ciao</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
nestor</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
============================</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
Dear all,</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
Please find attached the Service Catalogue #1 that has been approved by the IOAG.
</span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
You should be aware that the final approval regarding the editorial updates from NASA is still pending. There is an on-going discussion
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">concerning service management “function” vs. service management “service”.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
However, this version is good enough to be processed by the CESG.</span> <br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
[attachment "IOAG Service Catalog One.v2.0-Approved-20160823.pdf" deleted by Nestor Peccia/esoc/ESA]
<br>
[attachment "IOAG Service Catalog One.v2.0-Approved-20160823withBars.pdf" deleted by Nestor Peccia/esoc/ESA]
</span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
CESG will address this update during our next webex.</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
Main changes are :</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">1. </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">forward / return CFDP file over terrestrial generic file</span>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">2. </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">forward / return packet file service over terrestrial generic file</span>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">3. </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Service Management functions</span>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
ciao</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
nestor</span> <br>
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