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<div>I also see the use of CFDP as encapsulator not so efficient. Probably at the time it was conceived with 4 classes, core and extended procedures, it could have made more sense. But now looking at future missions we might want to consider something lighter
and at the same time more efficient, at least in my view.</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>
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<div id="AppleMailSignature">Tomaso<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On 27 Sep 2016, at 19:52, Scott, Keith L. <<a href="mailto:kscott@mitre.org">kscott@mitre.org</a>> wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Peter,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">OK, maybe my notion of co-opting the FF service over BP to implement fh/lh was/is premature or insane.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Gipo: While service catalog 2 may mention CFDP as an implementation mechanism for the FH/LH service I think that’s the wrong way to go. Since service catalog 2 is in the future (as you
point out) we (should) have the flexibility to change our minds about how the implementation should work and not be tied to something that got put there as a placeholder some number of years ago. This argument is of course predicated on my ability to convince
you and others that a fh/lh app over BP is “better than” (by some metric(s)) fh/lh over cfdp over bp.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> --keith<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">From: </span>
</b><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">Peter Shames <<a href="mailto:peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov">peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 1:27 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Keith Scott <<a href="mailto:kscott@mitre.org">kscott@mitre.org</a>>, "<a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a>" <<a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a>>, Gian Calzolari <<a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int">Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>, CCSDS Exec <<a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [CESG] IOAG: Service Catalogue #1 / File Services warning (complete)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Hi Keith,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">I agree completely with your first paragraph. That is a very good description of the first hop / last hop service and the motivation for it. That service concept also came out of the
IOAG SISG work and is now in the SCCS ADD. It is, as agreed, marked as a [Future] service, one that I think you are now starting to define. I'll also point out that the stack of protocol PDUs that would appear "on the wire" over a space link, would look
like this:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family:Calibri"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">FH/LH PDU</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo2">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><span style="mso-list:Ignore">o<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Meta data</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo2">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><span style="mso-list:Ignore">o<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">CCSDS frames (destined for the end node)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family:Calibri"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Bundles (BP)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family:Calibri"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">LTP (probably)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family:Calibri"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">CCSDS space data link frames (for the relay node)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family:Calibri"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">And the usual space link coding, modulation, etc</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">So that is a case of "CCSDS Link over BP", but it is only for the express purpose of kick-starting an end node that was in trouble, or for communicating with an end node that was never
BP enabled.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">In your second paragraph the first sentence sounds fine, but in the last two sentences things sort of, from my point of view, go off the rails. The F-Frame, as defined, is really quite
different from the LH/FH service. I think that the SCCS-ADD makes those differences quite clear so I won't try and re-describe them here. In the current deployed Internet, as used under SLE and CSTS, the protocols that are used terrestrially are TCP/IP and
that is what SLE and CSTS are predicated on. There's even a spec that describes what that stack looks like and it says nothing about running SLE/CSTS over BP. I will grant you, however, that in some future we could be running DTN everywhere, terrestrially
and in space, and in that future CSTS could be run over BP instead of TCP/IP. </span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">That said, even in that future state, it would still have to be the case that the transport of BP bundles, over the space link, would be done over the usual sort of space link protocol
(USLP would be my choice) and over some sort of suitable coding and modulation, with some sort of suitable ranging signals. These could be RF or optical, where "suitable" depends on distances, data rates, require coding gain, etc. I do not think it would
ever be accurate to say that we would carry "space link over BP" in that future except in the FH/LH circumstance, or something like it.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Regards, Peter</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">From: </span>
</b><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">Keith Scott <<a href="mailto:kscott@mitre.org">kscott@mitre.org</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 10:08 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a>" <<a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a>>, Peter Shames <<a href="mailto:peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov">peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>, Gian Paolo Calzolari <<a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int">Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>, CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec <<a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [CESG] IOAG: Service Catalogue #1 / File Services warning (complete)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Right, this is the notion in the ICPA of what Chris Taylor referred to as ‘first-hop / last-hop’ services. If you’ve got a spacecraft that is otherwise SSI-aware but is now in trouble,
it might not HAVE DTE capability and the only way to get emergency link-layer commands to it (assuming it was built to do that, which seems reasonable) would be to ship a bunch of frames to some SSI-enabled spacecraft NEAR the troubled one, then blast those
frames at the troubled one. My notion is that this is a standardized application that could be present on all (ok, many) SSI-enabled spacecraft, and the standardization bit is in how to express the ‘here’s what to send and here’s how to send it’ part. The
content (data + instructions) is shipped to the functioning spacecraft over one of the the SSI networking protocols (BP or IP).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">My understanding is that the FF service takes frames, moves them somewhere, combines them with other stuff and/or does whatever needs to be done to form a transmittable serialized stream
of bits, and hands that stream off for radiation. If that understanding is correct, if I use bundles as the shipment mechanism, FF service is pretty much a description of the SSI first hop / last hop service. And, I hope that unless there’s a need to be
more specific, the forward frame service could use any number of underlying mechanisms for shipment (e.g. TCP/IP suite, BP, etc.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> --keith</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">From: </span>
</b><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">"<a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a>" <<a href="mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de">Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 12:59 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Peter Shames <<a href="mailto:peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov">peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>, Gian Calzolari <<a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int">Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</a>>, Keith Scott <<a href="mailto:kscott@mitre.org">kscott@mitre.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>, CCSDS Exec <<a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [CESG] IOAG: Service Catalogue #1 / File Services warning (complete)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">If I don’t misinterpret Keith’s statement, I think it is about exploiting tunneling capabilities of the bundle protocol so that is able to transport “blindly” CCSDS frames.
Obviously we don’t want to flip the CCSDS protocol stack.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Tomaso
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:dimgray">————————————————————————</span><span style="color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:dimgray">Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:dimgray"> (DLR)</span><span style="color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:dimgray">German Aerospace Center</span><span style="color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:dimgray">Institute of Communications and Navigation | Satellite Networks | Oberpfaffenhofen | 82234 Wessling | Germany</span><span style="color:#1F497D">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="IT" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:dimgray">Tomaso de Cola, Ph.D.</span></b><span lang="IT" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:dimgray">Telefon +49 8153 28-2156 | Telefax +49 8153 28-2844 |</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:tomaso.decola@dlr.de"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">tomaso.decola@dlr.de</span></a>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/san">http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/san</a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> CESG [<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Shames, Peter M (312B)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 27, 2016 6:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int">Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</a>; Scott, Keith L.<br>
<b>Cc:</b> CESG; CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec(<a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</a>)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CESG] IOAG: Service Catalogue #1 / File Services warning (complete)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Gotta say I agree with Gippo on the last part of this. I too found that
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">"</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">forward frame service running over bundles</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">" statement
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">very confusing. Was it a typo?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">The operating assumption, as documented in SCCS-ADD, is that DTN bundles run on top of CCSDS frames and thus on top of CSTS services, not underneath them.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Peter</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">From: </span>
</b><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">Gian Paolo Calzolari <<a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int">Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 8:32 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Keith Scott <<a href="mailto:kscott@mitre.org">kscott@mitre.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec <<a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>, CESG <<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>, Nestor Peccia <<a href="mailto:Nestor.Peccia@esa.int">Nestor.Peccia@esa.int</a>>,
Peter Shames <<a href="mailto:peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov">peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [CESG] IOAG: Service Catalogue #1 / File Services warning (complete)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Keith, <br>
try to keep in mind that an IOAG Service is indeed a collection of Space Link Interface Standards & Ground Link Interface Standards.
<br>
Moreover, as Nestor underlined, Catalog 1 is for ABA configuration and the CFDP transmission only covers the single hop space to ground (or vice versa).</span>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">When you say "</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> I understood the forward file service to have evolved into a mechanism/semantic for zipping a bunch of stuff together (metadata, data,
etc.) </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">" I think you refer to the Ground Link Interface Standard under development in CSS; i.e. only to a part of the IOAG Serrvice.</span>
<br>
<span style="color:red"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red">Last but not least I am very puzzled by the statement "</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:red">forward frame service running over bundles</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red">".
Catalog 2 states that <<The CSTS Forward Frame Services above is “to be written”. It is assumed that this Service will provide a forward frame service for [AOS] and [TC-DLP] implementing multiplexing, frame fill and coding in the provider and implementing
the full stack down to the physical layer>> so having AOS or TC frames running over bundles would reverse our CSCDS Stack where are bundles that - throug e.g. encapsulation service - run over AOS and TC frames.</span><span style="color:red">
<br>
</span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Regards</span> <br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Gian Paolo</span> <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#5F5F5F">From: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">"Scott, Keith L." <<a href="mailto:kscott@mitre.org">kscott@mitre.org</a>></span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#5F5F5F">To: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">"Shames, Peter M (312B)" <<a href="mailto:peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov">peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov</a>>, "<a href="mailto:Nestor.Peccia@esa.int">Nestor.Peccia@esa.int</a>"
<<a href="mailto:Nestor.Peccia@esa.int">Nestor.Peccia@esa.int</a>>, "CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec(<a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</a>)" <<a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</a>></span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#5F5F5F">Date: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">26/09/2016 22:06</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#5F5F5F">Subject: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">Re: [CESG] IOAG: Service Catalogue #1</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#5F5F5F">Sent by: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">"CESG" <<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>></span>
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<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Peter,</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">I think I agree with you. My concern from the beginning has been that I do not want the forward file service to morph into a way to try to do multi-hop forwarding using file transfers as the ‘data link’ mechanism.
I understood the forward file service to have evolved into a mechanism/semantic for zipping a bunch of stuff together (metadata, data, etc.) to be used by the end system application (the receiver end of the data transfer), with possibly some application semantics
layered on top.</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">In fact, if the forward-XXX services were generalized just a bit, I think they’d cover the DTN emergency command/telemetry case. Or maybe the DTN emergency commanding service is the forward frame service running
over bundles, I hadn’t thought of that until now but I like it. If part of the CSTS forward-frame service states how to tunnel (in my case, FRAMES) to a remote location and then radiate them, and if it can be run over BP as a transport mechanism… It would
address an IOAG need, at least.</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> --keith</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<b><span style="font-family:Calibri">From: </span></b><span style="font-family:Calibri">"<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>>
on behalf of Peter Shames <<a href="mailto:peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov">peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov</a>><b><br>
Date: </b>Monday, September 26, 2016 at 3:33 PM<b><br>
To: </b>Nestor Peccia <<a href="mailto:Nestor.Peccia@esa.int">Nestor.Peccia@esa.int</a>>, CCSDS Exec <<a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><b><br>
Subject: </b>Re: [CESG] IOAG: Service Catalogue #1</span> <br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Nestor,</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">I know that this is a late input, but after reading the IOAG Svc Cat #1 I have a very real concern that I think needs to be surfaced. Four new services have been introduced, the "Forward/Return CFDP-File Service
Type" and the "Forward/Return PACKETS-File Service Type". In reading through the descriptions I find that they mention certain SM characteristics, but fail to acknowledge the required presence of a whole lot of "packet / file / frame plumbing" that is missing
in most of our current systems. Of particular concern, from a standards and logistics point of view, is that these new standards require a lot of the "plumbing" that CSTS F-Frame is supposed to provide, but make no mention of that standard. In fact, the
precursor standards, "Forward Synchronous Encoded Frame Service Type" has been dropped, and what is left is just some sort of weak "forward reference" to a CSTS F-Frame service.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">I think this is a huge mistake and that we should push back on it.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Here is the logic behind this:</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
1) <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">FF-CSTS includes the key services and functions that are required for anything like forward file, or forward packet, or forward DTN to work.</span>
<br>
2) <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">These functions include, quoting from the report "Users shall be aware that IOAG Service Catalog 2 foresees a future CSTS Forward Frame Service that is assumed will provide a forward service for [AOS]
and [TC-DLP] frames implementing multiplexing, frame fill and coding in the provider and implementing the full stack down to the physical layer."</span>
<br>
3) <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">In order to implement a forward file or packet service all of these functions,
<b><i>plus</i></b> frame creation, must be present in the service provider.</span>
<br>
4) <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">It makes little technical sense to create forward file and forward packet services, as new separate services that embed all of these function, instead of creating the FF-CSTS service and then building
CFDP and Packet service "plug-ins" on top of that which use this underlying service.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">In fact, this approach is exactly how the forward file service is now described in the SCCS-ADD. I draw your attention to CCSDS 901.1-M-1, sec 5.2.2.2 and sec 6.2.2.2. In fact, fig 6-4 shows the relationships
among SM, CSTS F-Frame, the associated functions that are required, including ranging, and also SLE R-AF, and fig 6-8 (ABA ESLT Forward-File Protocol Building Blocks) shows how F-Frame and Fwd frame are designed to be integrated. Any sort of forward packet
service ought to just be a variant of this.</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">My recommendation is that CCSDS push back on this IOAG Cat 1 request for two new stand alone services and instead argue that CSTS F-Frame should be done first, and these other new service built upon that base.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Regards, Peter</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> </span> <br>
<b><span style="font-family:Calibri">From: </span></b><span style="font-family:Calibri">CESG <<a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</a>> on behalf of Nestor Peccia <<a href="mailto:Nestor.Peccia@esa.int">Nestor.Peccia@esa.int</a>><b><br>
Date: </b>Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 3:43 AM<b><br>
To: </b>CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec <<a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</a>><b><br>
Subject: </b>[CESG] IOAG: Service Catalogue #1</span> <br>
<br>
<u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:red">REMINDER</span></u> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
Please let me have your comments (in particular from the CSS Area) by 22nd Sept 2016 cob.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
ciao</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
nestor</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
============================</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
Dear all,</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
Please find attached the Service Catalogue #1 that has been approved by the IOAG.
</span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
You should be aware that the final approval regarding the editorial updates from NASA is still pending. There is an on-going discussion
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">concerning service management “function” vs. service management “service”.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
However, this version is good enough to be processed by the CESG.</span> <br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
[attachment "IOAG Service Catalog One.v2.0-Approved-20160823.pdf" deleted by Nestor Peccia/esoc/ESA]
<br>
[attachment "IOAG Service Catalog One.v2.0-Approved-20160823withBars.pdf" deleted by Nestor Peccia/esoc/ESA]
</span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
CESG will address this update during our next webex.</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
Main changes are :</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">1. </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">forward / return CFDP file over terrestrial generic file</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">2. </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">forward / return packet file service over terrestrial generic file</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">3. </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Service Management functions</span>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
ciao</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
nestor</span> <br>
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