$)C<font size=2 face="Arial">OK Erik,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">just be careful that clause c is valid for
both Ascii Time Code A and B. Therefore my proposed text needs to be expanded
to cover also the Time Code A (in particular the part dealing with "Allowed
subsetting of 'calendar' subset are ...").</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Ciao</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">__Mario</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">From:
</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">"Barkley, Erik
J (3970)" <erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov></font>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">To:
</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">"Shames, Peter
M (312B)" <peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov>, "Mario.Merri@esa.int"
<Mario.Merri@esa.int></font>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Cc:
</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">"cesg@mailman.ccsds.org"
<cesg@mailman.ccsds.org></font>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Date:
</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">09/08/2016 03:45</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Subject:
</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">RE: [CESG] CCSDS
301.0-B-4 propsed pink sheet (Time Code B) / Backward compatibility?</font>
<br>
<hr noshade>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">Thank you to all the CESG
members who have replied. I believe the examples and wording
worked out between Mario and Peter is quite good and can indeed be the
basis for a corrigendum. I propose to produce the corrigendum text
unless any other CESG member has further comment. If there are further
comments, inputs by Monday, 15 August 2016 will be much appreciated. I
further propose to review the corrigendum at the next CESG Webex on September
7<sup>th</sup>. </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">Best regards,</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">-Erik</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri"><b>From:</b> CESG [</font><a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org"><font size=2 face="Calibri">mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</font></a><font size=2 face="Calibri">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Shames, Peter M (312B)<b><br>
Sent:</b> Monday, August 08, 2016 10:12 AM<b><br>
To:</b> Mario.Merri@esa.int<b><br>
Cc:</b> cesg@mailman.ccsds.org<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [CESG] CCSDS 301.0-B-4 propsed pink sheet (Time Code B)
/ Backward compatibility?</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri">Hi Mario,</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri">I would recommend leaving the !0one the
LEFT!1 and !0on the RIGHT!1 language alone. I think taking these
out makes it less clear. That said, I agree that adding in the !0calendar!1
and !0time!1 references, as you proposed, does make it clearer, and your
examples of allowed subsets are also clear.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri">I think the optional !0Z!1 terminator is
fine as it is. The logic, in my mind, is this: if there is just an
hh:mm:ss string there is no ambiguity and a blank, in all these cases,
is an acceptable token terminator for a parser. If there is an </font><font size=2 face="Arial">hh:mm:ss.d!fd
string there is still no ambiguity since a blank character is still </font><font size=2 face="Calibri">an
acceptable token terminator</font><font size=2 face="Arial">. However,
anyone wishing to add an explicit terminator can use the !0Z!1. It!/s
not really needed, since a blank works, but it!/s available as an option.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri">If everyone else on this email trail concurs
I propose that we create a corrigendum to that effect.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri">Regards, Peter</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Calibri"><b>From: </b>Mario Merri <</font><a href=mailto:Mario.Merri@esa.int><font size=3 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>Mario.Merri@esa.int</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Calibri">><b><br>
Date: </b>Monday, August 8, 2016 at 1:15 AM<b><br>
To: </b>Peter Shames <</font><a href=mailto:peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov><font size=3 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Calibri">><b><br>
Cc: </b>CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec <</font><a href=mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><font size=3 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Calibri">><b><br>
Subject: </b>Re: [CESG] CCSDS 301.0-B-4 propsed pink sheet (Time Code B)
/ Backward compatibility?</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Peter,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
<br>
</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
I am trying to help to make the specs clearer. I try below to put the point
I raised in my email into a concrete proposal for changing clause c (wording
can certainly be improved), which in my opinion is unambiguous (changes
in red):</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
===start proposal====</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
Calendar or time subsets may contain all the defined subfields, or may
be abbreviated</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
to the span of interest by deleting the unneeded subfields</font><font size=2 color=red face="Arial"><strike>,
either on the left or on the</strike></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 color=red face="Arial"><strike><br>
right</strike></font><font size=2 face="Arial">. However, when </font><font size=2 color=red face="Arial">'calendar'</font><font size=2 face="Arial">
subfields are deleted</font><font size=2 color=red face="Arial"><strike>
on the LEFT</strike></font><font size=2 face="Arial">, all separators that
had</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
delimited the deleted subfields must be retained (except for the !.T!/
which, by rule b,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
is dropped if the subset is used alone.) When </font><font size=2 color=red face="Arial">'time'
</font><font size=2 face="Arial">subfields are deleted</font><font size=2 color=red face="Arial"><strike>
on the RIGHT</strike></font><font size=2 face="Arial">, the</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
separators that had delimited the deleted subfields are dropped.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
<br>
</font><font size=2 color=red face="Arial"><br>
Allowed subsetting of 'calendar' subset are:</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 color=red face="Arial"><br>
YYYY-DDD</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 color=red face="Arial"><br>
-DDD</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 color=red face="Arial"><br>
Allowed subsetting of 'time' subset are:</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 color=red face="Arial"><br>
hh:mm:ss.d!fd</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 color=red face="Arial"><br>
hh:mm:ss</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 color=red face="Arial"><br>
hh:mm</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 color=red face="Arial"><br>
hh</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 color=red face="Arial"><br>
Any allowed 'calendar' subset can be joined to an allowed 'time' subset
by means of the 'T' separator.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
<br>
</font><font size=2 color=red face="Arial"><br>
EXAMPLES:</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 color=red face="Arial"><br>
YYYY-DDDThh:mm:ss</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 color=red face="Arial"><br>
-DDDThh:mm</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 color=red face="Arial"><br>
hh:mm:ss.d!fdZ <br>
YYYY-DDD</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
===end proposal====</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
I also raised a point on the fact that the separator 'Z' is optional, which
went unanswered.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
Ciao</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
__Mario</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
<br>
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Arial"><br>
From: </font><font size=1 face="Arial">"Shames,
Peter M (312B)" <</font><a href=mailto:peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Arial"><br>
To: </font><font size=1 face="Arial">"</font><a href=mailto:Mario.Merri@esa.int><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>Mario.Merri@esa.int</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">"
<</font><a href=mailto:Mario.Merri@esa.int><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>Mario.Merri@esa.int</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Arial"><br>
Cc: </font><font size=1 face="Arial">"</font><a href=mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">"
<</font><a href=mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">>,
"</font><a href=mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">"
<</font><a href=mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Arial"><br>
Date: </font><font size=1 face="Arial">07/08/2016
21:18</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Arial"><br>
Subject: </font><font size=1 face="Arial">Re:
[CESG] CCSDS 301.0-B-4 propsed pink sheet (Time Code B) / Backward compatibility?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font>
<div align=center>
<hr noshade></div>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
</font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
In English this is what we call !0a tempest in a teapot!1. This is
all in one spec, in three clauses, one of which has six sub-clauses. Various
of us seem to have:</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
a) Not read all three clauses</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
b) Only quoted parts of one sub-clause, not even the
whole of it</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
c) And this leads to confusion !&</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
As with all CCSDS specs you do need to read, understand, and comply with
all normative parts of the spec. At least here the ASCII Segmented
Time Code is stated in 2.5 pages of one rather modest spec and does not
require a stack of three dense specs to get to an understanding of what
is required. And it is a spec that has been around and in successful
use since 1987. It just cannot be a huge problem or source of confusion
or it would have surfaced years ago.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
My concrete suggestion for !0fixing!1 this was to add a few non-normative
examples so that the meaning of the spec is made even more clear. I
provided what I thought was a reasonable set of example that touch upon
the major inflection points where valid subsets can be created.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
If anyone has an alternative concrete suggestion, please offer it up so
we can all return to more substantive issues.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
Thanks, Peter</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3 face="Calibri"><b><br>
From: </b>Mario Merri <</font><a href=mailto:Mario.Merri@esa.int><font size=3 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>Mario.Merri@esa.int</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Calibri">><b><br>
Date: </b>Saturday, August 6, 2016 at 11:52 PM<b><br>
To: </b>Peter Shames <</font><a href=mailto:peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov><font size=3 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Calibri">><b><br>
Cc: </b>Gian Paolo Calzolari <</font><a href=mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int><font size=3 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Calibri">>,
CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec <</font><a href=mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><font size=3 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Calibri">><b><br>
Subject: </b>Re: [CESG] CCSDS 301.0-B-4 propsed pink sheet (Time Code B)
/ Backward compatibility?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
<br>
It is so clear that we have been discussing a week ...<br>
<br>
__Mario <br>
<br>
On 6 Aug 2016, at 02:17, Shames, Peter M (312B) <</font><a href=mailto:peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">>
wrote: </font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
I think the standard is quite clear enough as it is if you read all the
clauses, just like most of our specs. However, I would support the
addition of a non-normative corrigendum that provides some examples. I
do not think that that can be an exhaustive set of examples because in
spite of there being clear rules there are too many possible combinations.
I only showed a subset of the possible ones.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
Regards, Peter</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3 face="Calibri"><b><br>
From: </b>Gian Paolo Calzolari <</font><a href=mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int><font size=3 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Calibri">><b><br>
Date: </b>Friday, August 5, 2016 at 3:08 AM<b><br>
To: </b>Mario Merri <</font><a href=mailto:Mario.Merri@esa.int><font size=3 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>Mario.Merri@esa.int</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Calibri">><b><br>
Cc: </b>Peter Shames <</font><a href=mailto:peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov><font size=3 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Calibri">>,
CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec <</font><a href=mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><font size=3 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Calibri">><b><br>
Subject: </b>Re: [CESG] CCSDS 301.0-B-4 propsed pink sheet (Time Code B)
/ Backward compatibility?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
<br>
Mario, you are basically repeating my proposal; i.e. working on section
3.5.1.3 instead of adding the optional field in section 3.5.1.2.
:-) <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If we can do that just adding a NOTE we might go for an editorial corrigendum
as the addition would be non normative. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I go back to rest now <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Gippo <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone <br>
<br>
On 05 Aug 2016, at 09:45, </font><a href=mailto:Mario.Merri@esa.int><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>Mario.Merri@esa.int</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
wrote: </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
Peter,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
my proposal would be:</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
1. No change is needed to accommodate Erik's request as this is already
foreseen by the standard</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
2. Improve the text in the standard to make the rules for subsetting clearer.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
For 2. for instance, it is implicit and possibly open to interpretation
that, regardless whether one removes subsets from the left or from the
right, this must be done on contiguous subsets and one cannot take out
for example "mm" and have YYYY-DDDThh:ss (although I admit not
very meaningful). In other words to the left or to the right of what? I
know, it is a little bit pedantic, but CCSDS should strive for fully unambiguous
text. My proposal here is to further refine the text of clause c and add
the exhaustive list of allowed subset formats.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
I am also a little bit puzzled by the fact that the "Z" terminator
is declared optional. I guess the logic is that the parser will consider
the time code finished when it encounters a character different from a
numerical digit. What if, to save bits, the next field that happens to
be numeric is collapsed to the time code? Wouldn't be cleaner to make "Z"
terminator mandatory if the time subset is present?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
Regards,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
__Mario</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
<br>
<br>
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
From: </font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">"Shames,
Peter M (312B)" <</font><a href=mailto:peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov><font size=1 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Times New Roman"><br>
To: </font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">"</font><a href=mailto:Mario.Merri@esa.int><font size=1 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>Mario.Merri@esa.int</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">"
<</font><a href=mailto:Mario.Merri@esa.int><font size=1 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>Mario.Merri@esa.int</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">>,
"Barkley, Erik J (3970)" <</font><a href=mailto:erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov><font size=1 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Times New Roman"><br>
Cc: </font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">"</font><a href=mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><font size=1 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">"
<</font><a href=mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><font size=1 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Times New Roman"><br>
Date: </font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">04/08/2016
23:42</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Times New Roman"><br>
Subject: </font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">Re:
[CESG] CCSDS 301.0-B-4 propsed pink sheet (Time Code B) / Backward compatibility?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font>
<div align=center>
<hr noshade></div>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
</font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
<br>
Hi Mario,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
I!/m not clear what you are proposing. In one paragraph you say that
the standard is !0ok!1. In the next paragraph you say that the standard
forces use of ICDs because it is ambiguous. Which is it? And,
if you think it is a problem, just what would you propose to change?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
<br>
</font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
I agree that this could probably be stated even more clearly, but, as you
point out, it does provide both a clear specification of the full set of
sub-fields and rules for dropping sub-fields if they are not needed. If
you had quoted the complete text of sec 3.5.1.3.c you would see the following:</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
<br>
</font><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><br>
c) Calendar or time subsets may contain all the defined subfields,
or may be abbreviated to the span of interest by deleting the unneeded
subfields, either on the left or on the right. However, when subfields
are deleted on the LEFT, all separators that had delimited the deleted
subfields must be retained (except for the !.T!/ which, by rule b, is dropped
if the subset is used alone.) When subfields are deleted on the RIGHT,
the separators that had delimited the deleted subfields are dropped. </font><font size=3 face="MS Mincho">?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
Between this rule (and the other three in Sec 3.5.1.3), the explicit use
of required separators and the rules for keeping or dropping them, it is
possible to construct a simple but robust parser that will not have any
ambiguities. In fact, any parser that is supposed to be compliant
with this spec that has a problem with parsing any truncated calendar,
or time, or combined !0calendarTtime!1 format would have to be judged non-compliant
with the spec.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
According to the rules any of the following constructs should be acceptable:</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
<br>
</font><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><br>
YYYY-DDDThh:mm:ss.d</font><font size=4 face="Calibri">!f</font><font size=4 face="Times New Roman">dZ
<br>
YYYY-DDDThh:mm:ss.d</font><font size=4 face="Calibri">!f</font><font size=4 face="Times New Roman">d
<br>
-DDDThh:mm:ss <br>
-DDDThh:mm</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><br>
hh:mm:ss.d</font><font size=4 face="Calibri">!f</font><font size=4 face="Times New Roman">dZ
<br>
YYYY-DDD</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
Perhaps a non-normative set of examples like this would have helped?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
<br>
</font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
Thanks, Peter</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
<br>
</font><font size=3 face="Calibri"><b><br>
From: </b>CESG <</font><a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org"><font size=3 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Calibri">>
on behalf of Mario Merri <</font><a href=mailto:Mario.Merri@esa.int><font size=3 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>Mario.Merri@esa.int</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Calibri">><b><br>
Date: </b>Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 1:52 AM<b><br>
To: </b>Erik Barkley <</font><a href=mailto:erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov><font size=3 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Calibri">><b><br>
Cc: </b>CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec <</font><a href=mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><font size=3 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Calibri">><b><br>
Subject: </b>Re: [CESG] CCSDS 301.0-B-4 propsed pink sheet (Time Code B)
/ Backward compatibility?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
Hi Erik,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
I believe your proposed change is not needed as it is already covered by
the standard, in particular by clause 3.5.1.3.c. In fact, there it is clearly
stated that:</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<ul>
<li><font size=2 face="Arial">[...] time subsets [...] may be abbreviated
to the span of interest by deleting the unneeded subfields, either on the
left or on the right. </font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">This
implies that one can delete the "d!fd" subfield</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font>
<li><font size=2 face="Arial">When subfields are deleted on the RIGHT,
the separators that had delimited the deleted subfields are dropped. </font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">This
implies that one can delete the decimal dot</font></ul><font size=3 face="Symbol">!$</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
For the decimal dot I believe the current solution is OK. Robust implementations
should parse the time code string until they find the "Z". If
they find a "." before, then the time has decimal fraction of
second.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
On the other hand, clause 3.5.1.3.c provides full flexibility to eliminate
any subfield. This seems to me not clean and not in the spirit of standardisation
as it results in the proliferation of different time formats, which require
specific ICDs to make them unambiguous.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
Regards,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
__Mario</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
<br>
From: </font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">"Shames,
Peter M (312B)" <</font><a href=mailto:peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov><font size=1 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Times New Roman"><br>
To: </font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">"Barkley,
Erik J (3970)" <</font><a href=mailto:erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov><font size=1 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Times New Roman"><br>
Cc: </font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">"CESG
-- CCSDS-Engineering Steering Group\(</font><a href=mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><font size=1 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">\)\(</font><a href=mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><font size=1 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">\)"
<</font><a href=mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><font size=1 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Times New Roman"><br>
Date: </font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">04/08/2016
05:04</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Times New Roman"><br>
Subject: </font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">Re:
[CESG] CCSDS 301.0-B-4 propsed pink sheet (Time Code B) / Backward compatibility?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Times New Roman"><br>
Sent by: </font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">"CESG"
<</font><a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org"><font size=1 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font>
<div align=center>
<hr noshade></div>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I agree. I think clause 3.5.1.3.c covers this case (and even the
hh:mm case). I just hope that implementations are robust enough to
handle it correctly. <br>
<br>
Peter <br>
<br>
Sent from Peter's iPhone 6 <br>
<br>
Everything should be made as simple as possible, <br>
but not simpler. <br>
<br>
~Albert Einstein <br>
<br>
On Aug 3, 2016, at 6:34 PM, Barkley, Erik J (3970) <</font><a href=mailto:erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">>
wrote:</font><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri"><br>
<br>
Gippo,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri"><br>
<br>
I too noted that it might be possible to interpret 3.5.1.3 as already allowing
removal of the decimal fraction/sub-second. <br>
<br>
CESG members,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri"><br>
<br>
What is your taking/reading on this? Does this already allow fractional
seconds to be optional? If not, why not? <br>
<br>
Best regards,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri"><br>
-Erik</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><b><br>
<br>
From:</b> </font><a href=mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int><font size=2 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Calibri">
[</font><a href=mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int><font size=2 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Calibri">]
<b><br>
Sent:</b> Monday, July 25, 2016 2:26 AM<b><br>
To:</b> Barkley, Erik J (3970) <</font><a href=mailto:erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov><font size=2 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Calibri">><b><br>
Cc:</b> CESG -- CCSDS-Engineering Steering Group (</font><a href=mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><font size=2 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Calibri">)
(</font><a href=mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><font size=2 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Calibri">)
<</font><a href=mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><font size=2 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Calibri">><b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [CESG] CCSDS 301.0-B-4 propsed pink sheet (Time Code B)
/ Backward compatibility?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
Erik,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
from a purist point of view I think that it would be incorrect
stating that the change is backward compatible as a former implementation
would expect to find always the "</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">Decimal
fraction of second</font><font size=2 face="Arial">" and would most
likely crashes when that field is absent.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
Conversely a constant setting to 0 when not used would be fully backward
compatible.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
However it is also true that despite section 3.5.1.2 "ASCII TIME CODE
B, Year/Day of Year Calendar Variation" defines only one optional
field (i.e. the time code terminator) section 3.5.1.3 "SUBSETS
OF THE COMPLETE TIME CODES" basically allows many fields to be optional
so I wonder whether it would be more correct working on section 3.5.1.3
instead of adding the optional field in section 3.5.1.2.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
In other words, the part of </font><font size=2 face="Calibri">3.5.1.3
clause (c)</font><font size=2 face="Arial"> stating that the code "may
be abbreviated to the span of interest by deleting the unneeded subfields"
does already allow removing the Decimal fraction of second subfield?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
My cent.......</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
Gian Paolo</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
PS It looks to me that the sentence "</font><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">the
need to accommodate the upcoming century rollover in only 11 years</font><font size=2 face="Arial">"
was somehow wrong in 2010 as it is now :o)</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
<br>
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Arial"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: </font><font size=1 face="Arial">"Barkley,
Erik J (3970)" <</font><a href=mailto:erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Arial"><br>
To: </font><font size=1 face="Arial">"CESG
-- CCSDS-Engineering Steering Group (</font><a href=mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">)
(</font><a href=mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">)"
<</font><a href=mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Arial"><br>
Date: </font><font size=1 face="Arial">22/07/2016
01:44</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Arial"><br>
Subject: </font><font size=1 face="Arial">[CESG]
CCSDS 301.0-B-4 propsed pink sheet (Time Code B)</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Arial"><br>
Sent by: </font><font size=1 face="Arial">"CESG"
<</font><a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org"><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font>
<div align=center>
<hr noshade></div>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
</font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
CESG Colleagues,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
<br>
Attached is the proposed pink sheet for Time Code B which makes the time
code more suitable for such applications as publishing a standardized schedule
of services for which mandatory fractional seconds is meaningless. (By
the way does anyone know what the original rationale was for requiring,
at a minimum, 1/10 of second time statements?) The proposed change
is the addition of !0(optional)!1 which is in keeping with the method by
which optional is designated for the !0Z!1 character in the recommendation.
I believe the !0.!1 subfield separator disappears of by application
of 3.5.1.3 clause (c). If this change is made to Time Code
B, we likely should apply it to Time Code A. </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
<br>
Best regards,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
-Erik</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Calibri"><br>
<br>
[attachment "301x0b4e1-ProposedPinkSheet.docx" deleted by Gian
Paolo Calzolari/esoc/ESA] </font><font size=2 face="Courier New">_______________________________________________<br>
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</PRE>