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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Hi Mario,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">I’m not clear what you are proposing. In one paragraph you say that the standard is “ok”. In the next paragraph you say that the standard forces use of ICDs because it is ambiguous.
Which is it? And, if you think it is a problem, just what would you propose to change?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">I agree that this could probably be stated even more clearly, but, as you point out, it does provide both a clear specification of the full set of sub-fields and rules for dropping sub-fields
if they are not needed. If you had quoted the complete text of sec 3.5.1.3.c you would see the following:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in;line-height:18.0pt;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Times">c) Calendar or time subsets may contain all the defined subfields, or may be abbreviated to the span of interest by deleting the unneeded subfields, either on the left or on the right. However, when subfields
are deleted on the LEFT, all separators that had delimited the deleted subfields must be retained (except for the ‘T’ which, by rule b, is dropped if the subset is used alone.) When subfields are deleted on the RIGHT, the separators that had delimited the
deleted subfields are dropped. </span><span style="font-family:"MS Mincho"">
</span><span style="font-family:Times"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Between this rule (and the other three in Sec 3.5.1.3), the explicit use of required separators and the rules for keeping or dropping them, it is possible to construct a simple but robust
parser that will not have any ambiguities. In fact, any parser that is supposed to be compliant with this spec that has a problem with parsing any truncated calendar, or time, or combined “calendarTtime” format would have to be judged non-compliant with the
spec.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">According to the rules any of the following constructs should be acceptable:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in;line-height:18.0pt;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Times">YYYY-DDDThh:mm:ss.d</span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Calibri">→</span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Times">dZ
</span><span style="font-family:Times"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in;line-height:18.0pt;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Times">YYYY-DDDThh:mm:ss.d</span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Calibri">→</span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Times">d
</span><span style="font-family:Times"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in;line-height:18.0pt;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Times">-DDDThh:mm:ss </span><span style="font-family:Times"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in;line-height:18.0pt;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Times">-DDDThh:mm</span><span style="font-family:Times"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in;line-height:18.0pt;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Times">hh:mm:ss.d</span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Calibri">→</span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Times">dZ
</span><span style="font-family:Times"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in;line-height:18.0pt;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Times">YYYY-DDD</span><span style="font-family:Times"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Perhaps a non-normative set of examples like this would have helped?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Thanks, Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">From: </span>
</b><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">CESG <cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org> on behalf of Mario Merri <Mario.Merri@esa.int><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 1:52 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Erik Barkley <erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov><br>
<b>Cc: </b>CCSDS Engineering Steering Group - CESG Exec <cesg@mailman.ccsds.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [CESG] CCSDS 301.0-B-4 propsed pink sheet (Time Code B) / Backward compatibility?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in" id="MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Hi Erik,</span>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">I believe your proposed change is not needed as it is already covered by the standard, in particular by clause 3.5.1.3.c. In fact, there it is clearly stated that:</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">[...] time subsets [...] may be abbreviated to the span of interest by deleting the unneeded subfields, either on the left or on the right.
<span style="color:blue">This implies that one can delete the "d→d" subfield</span></span>
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">When subfields are deleted on the RIGHT, the separators that had delimited the deleted subfields are dropped.
<span style="color:blue">This implies that one can delete the decimal dot</span></span><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Symbol">·</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">For the decimal dot I believe the current solution is OK. Robust implementations should parse the time code string until they find the "Z". If they find a "." before, then the time has decimal fraction of second.</span>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">On the other hand, clause 3.5.1.3.c provides full flexibility to eliminate any subfield. This seems to me not clean and not in the spirit of standardisation as it results in the proliferation of different time
formats, which require specific ICDs to make them unambiguous.</span> <br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Regards,</span> <br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">__Mario</span> <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"sans-serif","serif";color:#5F5F5F">From: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"sans-serif","serif"">"Shames, Peter M (312B)" <peter.m.shames@jpl.nasa.gov></span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"sans-serif","serif";color:#5F5F5F">To: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"sans-serif","serif"">"Barkley, Erik J (3970)" <erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov></span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"sans-serif","serif";color:#5F5F5F">Cc: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"sans-serif","serif"">"CESG -- CCSDS-Engineering Steering Group\(cesg@mailman.ccsds.org\)\(cesg@mailman.ccsds.org\)" <cesg@mailman.ccsds.org></span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"sans-serif","serif";color:#5F5F5F">Date: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"sans-serif","serif"">04/08/2016 05:04</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"sans-serif","serif";color:#5F5F5F">Subject: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"sans-serif","serif"">Re: [CESG] CCSDS 301.0-B-4 propsed pink sheet (Time Code B) / Backward compatibility?</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"sans-serif","serif";color:#5F5F5F">Sent by: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"sans-serif","serif"">"CESG" <cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org></span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center">
<hr size="2" width="100%" noshade="" style="color:#AAAAAA" align="center">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
I agree. I think clause 3.5.1.3.c covers this case (and even the hh:mm case). I just hope that implementations are robust enough to handle it correctly.
<br>
<br>
Peter <br>
<br>
Sent from Peter's iPhone 6 <br>
<br>
Everything should be made as simple as possible, <br>
but not simpler. <br>
<br>
~Albert Einstein <br>
<br>
On Aug 3, 2016, at 6:34 PM, Barkley, Erik J (3970) <<a href="mailto:erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov">erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#004080">Gippo,</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#004080"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#004080">I too noted that it might be possible to interpret 3.5.1.3 as already allowing removal of the decimal fraction/sub-second.
</span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#004080"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#004080">CESG members,</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#004080"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#004080">What is your taking/reading on this? Does this already allow fractional seconds to be optional? If not, why not?
</span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#004080"> </span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#004080">Best regards,</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#004080">-Erik</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#004080"> </span> <br>
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">
</span><a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> [</span><a href="mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">mailto:Gian.Paolo.Calzolari@esa.int</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">]
<b><br>
Sent:</b> Monday, July 25, 2016 2:26 AM<b><br>
To:</b> Barkley, Erik J (3970) <</span><a href="mailto:erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">><b><br>
Cc:</b> CESG -- CCSDS-Engineering Steering Group (</span><a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">) (</span><a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">)
<</span><a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">><b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [CESG] CCSDS 301.0-B-4 propsed pink sheet (Time Code B) / Backward compatibility?</span>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Erik,</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">
<br>
from a purist point of view I think that it would be incorrect stating that the change is backward compatible as a former implementation would expect to find always the "</span>Decimal fraction of second<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">"
and would most likely crashes when that field is absent.</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">
<br>
Conversely a constant setting to 0 when not used would be fully backward compatible.</span>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"><br>
However it is also true that despite section 3.5.1.2 "ASCII TIME CODE B, Year/Day of Year Calendar Variation" defines only one optional field (i.e. the time code terminator) section 3.5.1.3 "SUBSETS OF THE COMPLETE TIME CODES" basically allows many fields
to be optional so I wonder whether it would be more correct working on section 3.5.1.3 instead of adding the optional field in section 3.5.1.2.</span>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"><br>
In other words, the part of </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">3.5.1.3 clause (c)</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"> stating that the code "may be abbreviated to the span of interest by deleting the unneeded subfields"
does already allow removing the Decimal fraction of second subfield?</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"><br>
My cent.......</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"><br>
Gian Paolo</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"><br>
PS It looks to me that the sentence "</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">the need to accommodate the upcoming century rollover in only 11 years</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">" was somehow wrong in 2010 as it is now :o)</span>
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<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#5F5F5F"><br>
From: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">"Barkley, Erik J (3970)" <</span><a href="mailto:erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">erik.j.barkley@jpl.nasa.gov</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">></span>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#5F5F5F"><br>
To: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">"CESG -- CCSDS-Engineering Steering Group (</span><a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">)
(</span><a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">)" <</span><a href="mailto:cesg@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">cesg@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">></span>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#5F5F5F"><br>
Date: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">22/07/2016 01:44</span>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#5F5F5F"><br>
Subject: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">[CESG] CCSDS 301.0-B-4 propsed pink sheet (Time Code B)</span>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#5F5F5F"><br>
Sent by: </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">"CESG" <</span><a href="mailto:cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">cesg-bounces@mailman.ccsds.org</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial">></span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><br>
CESG Colleagues,</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><br>
</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><br>
Attached is the proposed pink sheet for Time Code B which makes the time code more suitable for such applications as publishing a standardized schedule of services for which mandatory fractional seconds is meaningless. (By the way does anyone know what the
original rationale was for requiring, at a minimum, 1/10 of second time statements?) The proposed change is the addition of “(optional)” which is in keeping with the method by which optional is designated for the “Z” character in the recommendation. I believe
the “.” subfield separator disappears of by application of 3.5.1.3 clause (c). If this change is made to Time Code B, we likely should apply it to Time Code A. </span>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><br>
</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><br>
Best regards,</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><br>
-Erik</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><br>
</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><br>
[attachment "301x0b4e1-ProposedPinkSheet.docx" deleted by Gian Paolo Calzolari/esoc/ESA]
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