[CESG] [EXTERNAL] RE: Moving forward with Lunar Interoperability Forum
Shames, Peter M (US 312B)
peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov
Tue Mar 5 17:26:34 UTC 2024
Hi Tomaso,
That sounds like a good plan, and it should benefit SIS for the use of BP (& BPSec). I think it would be even more beneficial if we could get the 3GPP community to understand the potential uses of 3GPP technology off-planet, on the surface of the Moon, as the SOIS 3GPP effort intends. This takes some further thought because a lot of the intrinsically required 3GPP authentication and access control requires its own (local) IP-based infrastructure.
Furthermore, what I think we really need is a well formed, clearly documented, end-to-end, comm architecture that features DTN at the network layer, CCSDS and other links like 3GPP or WiFi at the link layer, and the ability to join together remote “islands of IP” using DTN as the network “backbone”. This is beyond just getting the 3GPP consortium to adopt DTN for their purposes, but it is, I believe, what we will need end-to-end for LunaNet and other similar Lunar deployments.
If we all agree that this is where we need to wind up let’s make sure that we start in the right direction to get there. Like Steven Covey, and other wise leaders, say “Begin with the end in mind”. https://www.franklincovey.com/the-7-habits/habit-2/
The appended diagram, taken from the SOIS 883.0-B-1 3GPP and WiFi document, is, I believe, one of the best examples we have of an end-to-end architecture that shows DTN E2E and includes 3GPP (or WiFi) tail circuits. It is missing a specific “islands of IP” component, largely because that was not what they were trying to accomplish.
Can we agree that this larger vision is important and try to work to achieve it. Can we also agree that this kind of architecture is “in the ballpark” of what will be needed?
Thanks, Peter
From: "Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de" <Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de>
Date: Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 1:28 AM
To: Peter Shames <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>, Klaus-Juergen Schulz <Klaus-Juergen.Schulz at esa.int>, Sami Asmar <sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov>, "murata.masaya at jaxa.jp" <murata.masaya at jaxa.jp>, Jim Schier <james.schier-1 at nasa.gov>
Cc: Amber Massaquoi <AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com>, "angela.d.peura at nasa.gov" <angela.d.peura at nasa.gov>, CESG <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org>
Subject: AW: [EXTERNAL] RE: Moving forward with Lunar Interoperability Forum
Hi Peter,
yes I’ve some contacts there that I’ll try to exploit to better understand what is the plan and possibly create some joint plan between CCSDS and 3GPP to make sure that in the case BP is planned to be used this is done in the proper way.
Regards,
Tomaso
Von: Shames, Peter M (US 312B) <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>
Gesendet: Montag, 4. März 2024 18:22
An: de Cola, Tomaso <Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de>; Klaus-Juergen.Schulz at esa.int; Asmar, Sami W (US 9100) <sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov>; murata.masaya at jaxa.jp; james.schier-1 at nasa.gov
Cc: AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com; angela.d.peura at nasa.gov; cesg at mailman.ccsds.org
Betreff: Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: Moving forward with Lunar Interoperability Forum
Hi Tomaso,
Thanks for the informative reply. Getting to see your slides the end of this week would be fine. For me it’s more a matter of curiosity and wanting to stay informed.
The fact that you have been tracking these 3GPP is really good to hear. It appears that you have been involved in this for some time and that is excellent from my point of view. So we have, one way or another, both SOIS and SIS engaged in this, from two somewhat different points of view. Perhaps we should consider having a sort of side discussion among interested CCSDS parties and any support staff who are involved.
I like your suggestion of trying to have a “technical discussion with the people involved in the standardization of this S&F service”. Do you have contact with any of them? Would you want to have a discussion that involved the SOIS guys too? And I still think it might be useful to form a liaison with them, but maybe this discussion you propose is the best way to assess that and facilitate it.
Best regards, Peter
From: "Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de<mailto:Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de>" <Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de<mailto:Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de>>
Date: Monday, March 4, 2024 at 2:47 AM
To: Peter Shames <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>>, Klaus-Juergen Schulz <Klaus-Juergen.Schulz at esa.int<mailto:Klaus-Juergen.Schulz at esa.int>>, Sami Asmar <sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov>>, "murata.masaya at jaxa.jp<mailto:murata.masaya at jaxa.jp>" <murata.masaya at jaxa.jp<mailto:murata.masaya at jaxa.jp>>, Jim Schier <james.schier-1 at nasa.gov<mailto:james.schier-1 at nasa.gov>>
Cc: Amber Massaquoi <AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com<mailto:AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com>>, "angela.d.peura at nasa.gov<mailto:angela.d.peura at nasa.gov>" <angela.d.peura at nasa.gov<mailto:angela.d.peura at nasa.gov>>, CESG <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:cesg at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Subject: AW: [EXTERNAL] RE: Moving forward with Lunar Interoperability Forum
Hi Peter,
if I manage I could share the slides by Friday this week, it will be in any case a introduction to CCSDS and SIS area as this webinar is part of the IPNSIG “academy” series, as such no deep dive into CCSDS will be provided. Also because in 1h time I cannot provide too many details.
As to the 3GPP activities, I’m well aware of what’s happening there around the so-called “non-terrestrial networks” (NTN) standardization activity.
To the best of my knowledge, the S&F service was requested only the NB-IoT scenario so that each data received from the satellite could be stored onboard until the satellite reaches the area where the destination is located and then dump the data accordingly. This scenario is under the assumption that no ISL were in place (as reference architecture in Rel. 18 of 3GPP). Then with the new release, ISL should be addressed as well, but I don’t know if this is considered only for broadband service or also for the IoT part. I’m somehow following the standardization there so that at some point once the specification work will start I hope this will clearer whether or not this is the case. The critical point, as you correctly spotted, is what 3GPP means by delay/disruption tolerant networking. To the best of my knowledge, there is not yet a clear idea in this respect, although they are not necessarily pointing to the DTN we know from IETF/CCSDS, i.e. BP over convergence layer adapters. It can well be an ad-hoc service, where the packets processed by an onboard gNB (i.e. after PDCP protocol layer operations) are stored “somehow” in a dedicated UPF (user-plane function) module, which could be in principle responsible also for switching/routing and other networking functionalities (if desirable). Obviously from this standpoint, one could think why not to directly use BP on top of PDCP (or if we want to keep an IP-based interface something like BP over UDP over IP over PDCP) and in turn over the space link from a satellite to a ground station this could BP over EPP/SPP over USLP over DVB (some manufacturers are also fine over TM C&S). For sure it would be desirable to join forces between CCSDS and 3GPP in this respect to avoid re-inventing the wheel. Moreover, in the context of SOIS there are already a few books (e.g., CCSDS 883.0-B-1) addressing the integration of BP and 3GPP technologies.
This said, I don’t know if the best would be to directly pursue a liaision between CCSDS and 3GPP or to have a technical discussion with the people involved in the standardization of this S&F service as to better understand if 1) they want really to specify a S&F service and if so 2) convincing them about the fact that there exist already quite consolidated technology coming from us, i.e. DTN.
Regards,
Tomaso
Von: Shames, Peter M (US 312B) <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>>
Gesendet: Freitag, 1. März 2024 20:33
An: de Cola, Tomaso <Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de<mailto:Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de>>; Klaus-Juergen.Schulz at esa.int<mailto:Klaus-Juergen.Schulz at esa.int>; Asmar, Sami W (US 9100) <sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov>>; murata.masaya at jaxa.jp<mailto:murata.masaya at jaxa.jp>; james.schier-1 at nasa.gov<mailto:james.schier-1 at nasa.gov>
Cc: AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com<mailto:AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com>; angela.d.peura at nasa.gov<mailto:angela.d.peura at nasa.gov>; cesg at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:cesg at mailman.ccsds.org>
Betreff: Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: Moving forward with Lunar Interoperability Forum
Tomaso,
I think this is great. The more that we can all speak and deliver essentially the same message, in our own voices of course, the better off we will be.
Would you be willing to share your materials prior to delivering them?
Along these same lines of “Lunar Interoperability”, but on what should only be a slight tangent, I learned today that the 3rd Generation Partnership Project (3GPP) has just published a document titled “3rd Generation Partnership Project; Technical Specification Group Services and System Aspects; Study on satellite access Phase 3”. The public document is attached here. You may be saying “so what, what does this have to do with CCSDS and Lunar Interoperabilty?”.
This document purports to describe a 5G architecture that corresponds to a set of 5G requirements that include “store & forward” and use over non-geo-stationary satellite links (NGSO). And the example that is provided on pg 44, fig A-1, states “The concept of “S&F” service is widely used in the fields of delay-tolerant networking and disruption-tolerant networking.”. You might think that the use of those specific phrases means that they are adopting DTN, but, in fact, they do not mention DTN at all. In fact, what I understand is that the 3GPP members, who are highly competitive instead of collaborative, supplied some 20 separate proposals all of which were different company owned approaches and none of which were DTN.
So yes, 3GPP is a little off-topic for Lunar interoperability, but I think it is highly germane. I think we, CCSDS, should seek a liaison relationship with the 3GPP and offer them up our DTN solution over their 5G circuits. This liaison relationship may or may not work, but I think it is worth a shot. The SOIS already has a working relationship with at least one of the 3GPP companies. NASA has, I know, some separate 3GPP effort going on. And somehow ETSI is also involved. What CCSDS (and the agencies involved in Lunar exploration), have to offer is a possible path to use of 3GPP architecture, and DTN, on the Moon. This is what the CCSDS 3GPP and WiFi document envisions.
What do you think? Is this something we should aggressively pursue, and now?
Regards, Peter
From: "Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de<mailto:Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de>" <Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de<mailto:Tomaso.deCola at dlr.de>>
Date: Friday, March 1, 2024 at 12:43 AM
To: Peter Shames <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>>, Klaus-Juergen Schulz <Klaus-Juergen.Schulz at esa.int<mailto:Klaus-Juergen.Schulz at esa.int>>, Sami Asmar <sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov>>, "murata.masaya at jaxa.jp<mailto:murata.masaya at jaxa.jp>" <murata.masaya at jaxa.jp<mailto:murata.masaya at jaxa.jp>>, Jim Schier <james.schier-1 at nasa.gov<mailto:james.schier-1 at nasa.gov>>
Cc: Amber Massaquoi <AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com<mailto:AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com>>, "angela.d.peura at nasa.gov<mailto:angela.d.peura at nasa.gov>" <angela.d.peura at nasa.gov<mailto:angela.d.peura at nasa.gov>>, CESG <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:cesg at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Subject: AW: [EXTERNAL] RE: Moving forward with Lunar Interoperability Forum
Dear All,
on March 14th I’m going to give an introduction to CCSDS SIS area activities at IPNSIG (https://www.ipnsig.org/<https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/www.ipnsig.org/__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!J-nIV4zd7yV9BYvLrs1ctVLv0FarmDfeulHFlG1e1_Su8I_aKAjFyn6kLF33gya0cMSkiyTtoY9F27BRU92mRidORa0z-n-2$>). I was thinking to share some information about this initiative at the end of the talk, although the date of the talk is relatively close to the deadline we set to collect the contributions. If you have any objections about my proposal, please let me know.
Best Regards,
Tomaso
Von: CESG <cesg-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:cesg-bounces at mailman.ccsds.org>> Im Auftrag von Shames, Peter M (US 312B) via CESG
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Februar 2024 22:37
An: Klaus-Juergen Schulz <Klaus-Juergen.Schulz at esa.int<mailto:Klaus-Juergen.Schulz at esa.int>>; Asmar, Sami W (US 9100) <sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov>>; 村田 眞哉 <murata.masaya at jaxa.jp<mailto:murata.masaya at jaxa.jp>>; Schier, James (HQ-CG000) <james.schier-1 at nasa.gov<mailto:james.schier-1 at nasa.gov>>
Cc: Massaquoi Amber <AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com<mailto:AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com>>; Peura, Angela D. (HQ-CG000)[Agile Decision Sciences] <angela.d.peura at nasa.gov<mailto:angela.d.peura at nasa.gov>>; CESG <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:cesg at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Betreff: Re: [CESG] [EXTERNAL] RE: Moving forward with Lunar Interoperability Forum
Priorität: Hoch
Please use announcement v1a (attached). Angela pointed out (thank you) that I had written “pointing” instead of “positioning” as the “P” in PNT.
Teach me to rush.
Sorry, Peter
From: Peter Shames <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>>
Date: Thursday, February 29, 2024 at 1:14 PM
To: Klaus-Juergen Schulz <Klaus-Juergen.Schulz at esa.int<mailto:Klaus-Juergen.Schulz at esa.int>>, Sami Asmar <sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov>>, 村田 眞哉 <murata.masaya at jaxa.jp<mailto:murata.masaya at jaxa.jp>>, Jim Schier <james.schier-1 at nasa.gov<mailto:james.schier-1 at nasa.gov>>
Cc: "Peura, Angela D. (HQ-CG000)[Agile Decision Sciences]" <angela.d.peura at nasa.gov<mailto:angela.d.peura at nasa.gov>>, Amber Massaquoi <AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com<mailto:AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com>>, CESG <cesg at mailman.ccsds.org<mailto:cesg at mailman.ccsds.org>>
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: Moving forward with Lunar Interoperability Forum
Attached are the two revised files for the Lunar Interoperability Forum that include PNT as well as comm, and otherwise clean up wording.
Best regards, Peter
From: Klaus-Juergen Schulz <Klaus-Juergen.Schulz at esa.int<mailto:Klaus-Juergen.Schulz at esa.int>>
Date: Thursday, February 29, 2024 at 1:54 AM
To: Sami Asmar <sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov>>, 村田 眞哉 <murata.masaya at jaxa.jp<mailto:murata.masaya at jaxa.jp>>, Jim Schier <james.schier-1 at nasa.gov<mailto:james.schier-1 at nasa.gov>>, Peter Shames <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>>
Cc: "Peura, Angela D. (HQ-CG000)[Agile Decision Sciences]" <angela.d.peura at nasa.gov<mailto:angela.d.peura at nasa.gov>>, Amber Massaquoi <AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com<mailto:AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Moving forward with Lunar Interoperability Forum
Dear Sami,
Yes, please add “Position, Navigation, Timing (PNT)” spelled out in the announcement. It was an oversight on the CESG side on Tuesday.
Best Regards,
Klaus-Juergen
From: Asmar, Sami W (US 9100) <sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov>>
Sent: Thursday, February 29, 2024 1:05 AM
To: 村田 眞哉 <murata.masaya at jaxa.jp<mailto:murata.masaya at jaxa.jp>>; Schier, James (HQ-CG000) <james.schier-1 at nasa.gov<mailto:james.schier-1 at nasa.gov>>; Shames, Peter M (US 312B) <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>>
Cc: Peura, Angela D. (HQ-CG000)[Agile Decision Sciences] <angela.d.peura at nasa.gov<mailto:angela.d.peura at nasa.gov>>; Massaquoi Amber <AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com<mailto:AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com>>; Klaus-Juergen Schulz <Klaus-Juergen.Schulz at esa.int<mailto:Klaus-Juergen.Schulz at esa.int>>
Subject: Re: Moving forward with Lunar Interoperability Forum
Peter/Klaus-Juergen: Did the CESG intend for this to be limited to Communications?
I agree we should add the other keywords.
From: murata.masaya at jaxa.jp<mailto:murata.masaya at jaxa.jp> <murata.masaya at jaxa.jp<mailto:murata.masaya at jaxa.jp>>
Date: Wednesday, February 28, 2024 at 4:03 PM
To: Asmar, Sami W (US 9100) <sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov>>, Schier, James (HQ-CG000) <james.schier-1 at nasa.gov<mailto:james.schier-1 at nasa.gov>>, Shames, Peter M (US 312B) <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>>
Cc: Peura, Angela D. (HQ-CG000)[Agile Decision Sciences] <angela.d.peura at nasa.gov<mailto:angela.d.peura at nasa.gov>>, Massaquoi Amber <AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com<mailto:AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Moving forward with Lunar Interoperability Forum
Hi Sami.
Because the following theme just touches lunar “communications”, I was wondering about lunar “navigation”. It might be better to add keywords “navigation” or “PNT” in the theme so that people from navigation community would be also participating without a problem.
* Theme: Bringing together members of the Lunar communications “community” to discuss drivers, opportunities, and means to foster development and deployment of interoperable (and secure) communications systems
Best regards,
Masaya
----------------------------------------------------------
Masaya Murata
Japan Aerospace eXploration Agency
Phone: 050-3362-3985
Email: murata.masaya at jaxa.jp<mailto:murata.masaya at jaxa.jp>
----------------------------------------------------------
From: Asmar, Sami W (US 9100) <sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov>>
Sent: Thursday, February 29, 2024 9:00 AM
To: 村田 眞哉 <murata.masaya at jaxa.jp<mailto:murata.masaya at jaxa.jp>>; Schier, James (HQ-CG000) <james.schier-1 at nasa.gov<mailto:james.schier-1 at nasa.gov>>; Shames, Peter M (US 312B) <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>>
Cc: Peura, Angela D. (HQ-CG000)[Agile Decision Sciences] <angela.d.peura at nasa.gov<mailto:angela.d.peura at nasa.gov>>; Massaquoi Amber <AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com<mailto:AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com>>
Subject: Re: Moving forward with Lunar Interoperability Forum
I think is should within scope. Navigation tools and techniques must be interoperable.
Thanks
From: murata.masaya at jaxa.jp<mailto:murata.masaya at jaxa.jp> <murata.masaya at jaxa.jp<mailto:murata.masaya at jaxa.jp>>
Date: Wednesday, February 28, 2024 at 3:57 PM
To: Asmar, Sami W (US 9100) <sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov>>, Schier, James (HQ-CG000) <james.schier-1 at nasa.gov<mailto:james.schier-1 at nasa.gov>>, Shames, Peter M (US 312B) <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>>
Cc: Peura, Angela D. (HQ-CG000)[Agile Decision Sciences] <angela.d.peura at nasa.gov<mailto:angela.d.peura at nasa.gov>>, Massaquoi Amber <AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com<mailto:AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Moving forward with Lunar Interoperability Forum
Hi Sami,
Thank you very much for the wonderful news.
Regarding the theme, lunar “navigation” or “PNT” is not within the scope of this forum?
Best regards,
Masaya
----------------------------------------------------------
Masaya Murata
Japan Aerospace eXploration Agency
Phone: 050-3362-3985
Email: murata.masaya at jaxa.jp<mailto:murata.masaya at jaxa.jp>
----------------------------------------------------------
From: Asmar, Sami W (US 9100) <sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:sami.w.asmar at jpl.nasa.gov>>
Sent: Thursday, February 29, 2024 8:28 AM
To: Schier, James (HQ-CG000) <james.schier-1 at nasa.gov<mailto:james.schier-1 at nasa.gov>>; 村田 眞哉 <murata.masaya at jaxa.jp<mailto:murata.masaya at jaxa.jp>>; Shames, Peter M (US 312B) <peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:peter.m.shames at jpl.nasa.gov>>
Cc: Peura, Angela D. (HQ-CG000)[Agile Decision Sciences] <angela.d.peura at nasa.gov<mailto:angela.d.peura at nasa.gov>>; Massaquoi Amber <AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com<mailto:AMassaquoi at asrcfederal.com>>
Subject: Moving forward with Lunar Interoperability Forum
Hi Jim and Masaya,
I wanted to let you know that the Forum will take place. We are changing it a little bit to separate from the procurement/tender process by NASA and ESA and make more a community forum for exchange of relevant information.
* Workshop title: “Lunar Interoperability Forum”
* Date: 7 May 24 in Washington, DC
* Place: US Dept of Commerce (NOTE: may need to work access issues)
* Sponsors: CCSDS & IOAG
* Chair: Sami Asmar
* Theme: Bringing together members of the Lunar communications “community” to discuss drivers, opportunities, and means to foster development and deployment of interoperable (and secure) communications systems
* CCSDS objective: Encourage community members to participate in CCSDS Standards activities, there are no other data standards orgs aside from the IETF DTN
I know JAXA will have a presentation for us. We are now preparing the agenda and getting ready to send the announcement but wanted you to know first.
Jim will also be one of our speakers, of course.
Sami
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